[Springboard] Deep culture behind our debate on health care reform

James Wiegel jfwiegel at yahoo.com
Thu Sep 3 05:52:55 CDT 2009


I can see, from this conversation, how much more is going on in the health care reform debate, and how much more is being added in, so it becomes an "argument about everything" . . . and this is among us, a quite small demographic of people, I think, with a shared history and a "transestablishment" (facilitative) perspective of brining people together for consensus, common vision, etc.

In the project I have been helping with re:  combining ICA's ToP and other methods for use in the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, one of the project partners talks about 3 levels of a conflict:  conflict over resources, conflict over goals, conflict over identities.  Their insight is that once a conflict becomes about identity, there is something non negotiable that enters in to the conversation.   Another of the project partners talks about elements of the "deep culture" that fuel conflict -- a "cognitive pathology" and an "emotional pathology" (see below)  

Deep Cultures often have elements
	which are counterproductive for peace. Two syndromes in particular
	can generally be identified. There is a cognitive pathology in Deep
	Culture which affects how a society thinks and analyses a conflict.
	There is also an Emotional pathology which strongly affect
	The Cognitive syndrome, DMA for
	short, is centered on Dichotomy (reducing the conflict to 2 conflict
	parties only)i,
	Manichaeism (where one side is “Good” and one side is “Evil”)
	and Armageddon (that there will be a final and inevitable battle in
	which Good decisively destroys Evil). 
	The Emotional syndrome, CGT for
	short, is centered on Chosenness (the belief that a group of people
	have been chosen by transcendental forces or history for a political
	mission), Glory (the myths of past and future glory, underscoring
	their Chosenness), and Trauma (the experience of past injuries and
	defeats, underscoring the need to pursue their Mission). 

	reinforce this syndrome when we call the “Israeli – Palestinian”
	identities into the room


Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a pun.  G. K. Chesterton

Jim Wiegel

401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401

+1  623-936-8671   +1  623-363-3277

   jfwiegel at yahoo.com   www.partnersinparticipation.com

--- On Wed, 9/2/09, jonzondo at juno.com <jonzondo at juno.com> wrote:

From: jonzondo at juno.com <jonzondo at juno.com>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] More about the definitions of Liberal and Conservati ve
To: oe at wedgeblade.net
Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 11:15 PM

1)Most conservatives I know support Diebold voting machines.  Some make money off of them.  And in Washington State, there was conservative resistance to a paper trail.
2) The elections of 2000 and 2004 and the lack of interest in counting every vote.
3) Discussions with my conservative relatives.
4) "Illegal" Phone calls made in several states to my friends of different ethnicities giving false information about the 2008 election, all in an effort to reduce the number of people voting for Obama.

I hope that all people are ready for fair clean elections.  That will be a blessing.

Jon Elizondo

You've got to be kidding!  Where could you possibly have come up with the idea that conservatives oppose fair clean elections and open government? 
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You've got to be kidding!  Where could you possibly 
have come up with the idea that conservatives oppose fair clean elections and 
open government?  Part of the huge problem with Obama is that he promised 
transparency and hasn't practiced it.  And can you possibly know about 
Acorn and think the Democrats are all about clean electins? Conservatives 
support everything on your list. They just don't support distortion and 
manipulation of all those issues.

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net 
[mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Dave 
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 8:49 PM
'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: [Oe List ...] More about the 
definitions of Liberal and Conservative

Learn more about 
Liberals and the types of Conservatives (Traditional Conservatives, 
Libertarians, Christian Conservatives and Neo-Conservatives) who oppose them at 
Also note our Liberal 
Priorities, which Conservatives consistently 
Fair Clean Elections and Open 
Fair Taxes and Competent 
Investment for 
Quality Health, Education, Jobs, 
Environmental Protection and 
Energy Independence 
Security and Equal Rights 
Justice and Peace 
International Cooperation and 
Conservatives oppose all 
of these  Dave 

oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of ed feldmanis
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 7:59 
oe at wedgeblade.net
Subject: [Oe 
List ...] What do we mean by a right? To Jim, Dave,et.al. re: 

The most eloquent modern day 
description that I have seen is in the book Conscience of a Conservative by 
Barry Goldwater.

I have to agree with Dave as far as his description 
goes. Here is where I found the problem, at least for me: Conservatives may give 
lip service to these values, but they intolerantly restrict the freedoms and 
opportunities they would offer people different from themselves, often valuing 
the freedom of businesses more than the freedom of individuals.  

I find that statement in general to be devastatingly true 
and possibly un-American. However, I don't agree that every conservative is 
merely giving lip service. My own impression is that Barry Goldwater was very 
sincere and specific in his book. At the point of writing the book, in my 
opinion, there was some sense in that folks still wanted to make America work 
for everybody and they thought they had more common ground than there is 

For a while it, the Goldwater book, was the standard of what a 
conservative was. Conservativism was tied to merit, learning,  service, pay 
as you go spending, and the wide spread use of incentives before deciding to 
create an agency; and, by the way, there was some sense of what is called 
state-craft.  If pushed beyond Goldwater to Teddy Roosevelt it was also 
tied to conservation.  I think in my time this is as close to having a 
dynamic - conservativism- defined in some stability. (Notice some of the 
liberalism inherent in the above description.)

Where I really disagree is 
where many people simply call the new crowd conservatives; for example, the 
crowd now in power and mostly Southerners and their business conspirators. The 
label, I think, in this case, is a cop out for the sake of convenience.  In 
my mind, I can not get the label of conservative to stick on extremists or 
people who have neo-fascist ideas.  These are the same people who called 
Goldwater a liberal. And they are the so-called conservatives of our day.  
I don't buy it, but the press and then everyone else seems 


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