[Dialogue] Spong on Virginia Tech and RC Pedophiliacs: All of history conspired
Adam Thomson
dmtmsn at language.eclipse.co.uk
Sun Apr 22 01:50:26 EDT 2007
From Adam Thomson, Dover UK
There are many important facets to this conversation emanating from
Margaret's posting, and it's hard to make a response that honours all
contributions - but I was struck by Baumbach's "...the universe that
I happen to live in is one where bad things happen to good people and
good things happen to bad people..." - which of course from our
perspective is right. But surely we have to say, "things happen to
people" (or, "stuff happens") - "good" and "bad" are entirely
subjective categories and have nothing to do with God or the mystery.
Or, put another way, it's a question of story (which surely is where
we'all came in...). Each of our contributions to this conversation is
of course related to the story we have each formed from our own
experience, and our experience and "training" as part of this group.
So we can recall parts of our own story as Paula did (..."conspired"...).
Now, I find Spong helpful insofar as he is an establishment figure
who has journeyed more than most from the default establishment
position. However, in my opinion, he generally tries not to alienate
his (paying) constituency too much: I suspect he has journeyed
further than he lets on. For instance, the whole sentence - of which
Margaret highlights part - reads, "Good deeds designed to win the
approval of the heavenly parent will not guarantee that we live
another day if someone marks us for death, or even if we find
ourselves accidentally in the wrong place at the wrong time." Now I
cannot believe that Spong (whom I've met) really operates out of this
"parent" image. As a spiritual pastor he is trying to journey his
congregation along a road that he has already travelled. Not always easy.
Spong tries continually to relate scriptural text to topical events
(and succeeds far more than most clergy of the Episcopal or Anglican
church do). He rightly wades into political discussion as part of
this process, but is probably not surprised at the size of his
postbag as a result - again a good outcome from his efforts.
Part of the good outcome was Margaret's posting on this site, with
consequent responses from Baumbach, Wiegel, Cock, Paula, Rippey and
hopefully others. For which many thinks to whomever...
Yours, Adam
END OF MESSAGE
At 01:07 22/04/2007, you wrote:
>So, here is my question: did someone send around an original post
>from Spong on this? If so, how come I didn't get it? This happens
>from time to time to me, like having your hearing aid turned off for
>part of the conversation . . .
>
> From when I got into the conversation, seems the topic is, how do
> you address what happened at Virginia Tech. To be honest, I have
> been trying to avoid even thinking about it, because this event,
> along with the weeklong PBS special on America at the Cross Roads
> about Iraq and what is going on in the world just has me
> overwhelmed and feeling a bit like Rip Van Winkle . . . like I just
> woke up from a long sleep and some thing else is going on now than
> was going on when I laid down to rest.
>
>I sent round that page on the Guernica conversation earlier in the
>week, and the question came up: What word would you address to this
>situation?
>
>Jim Baumbach <wtw0bl at new.rr.com> wrote:
>Paula, I'm not sure what the message is that you are trying to send
>but there is a real danger in construing the events of history
>leading up to this moment and Calvin's notion of
>predestination. Whether you choose to anthropomorphize the time
>dimension called history to say "all of history conspired" to bring
>us to this point or you find yourself deciding the will of God or
>you are a co-creator with God, history does not decide what the
>future will be. As a being of free will, I can participate in
>creating history as far as the physics and chemistry of this planet
>allow. I may see the gunman pull the trigger but my physical
>limitations can not move my body fast enough to get out of the way
>of the speeding bullet. Was that a conspiracy of history to plunk
>me dead? Was it a conspiracy of a Chinaman 4,000 years ago who
>invented gunpowder in order to have me assassinated? It was never a
>meaningful insight to me to say that all of history conspired to
>bring the Holocaust into our lives. There are simply those events
>occurring in which some poor unfortunate souls happen to get in the
>way. And that for me is the nature of God's universe.
>
>Paula Philbrook wrote:
>>Remember the phrase,
>> all of history conspired all of history conspired
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On 4/21/07, Jim Baumbach
>><<mailto:wtw0bl at new.rr.com>wtw0bl at new.rr.com> wrote:
>>John, maybe both you and Margaret missed some point in Spong's
>>essay as well as Margaret's strong response to the phrase Spong
>>used. I had a similar response as Jim did when I read Margaret's
>>letter. Her abhorrence of the phrase "...wrong place at the wrong
>>time," would imply that she would be more satisfied with the
>>opposite statement, "...right place at the right time." I can't
>>say for sure that is what Margaret had in mind but I also revolt at
>>the notion that somehow God guided the hapless victims into the
>>paths of those fatal bullets. And it gets even worse to imply that
>>the victims (if one can actually use that term in this discourse)
>>were to blame for their stupidity in deciding to be there. The
>>universe that I happen to live in is one where bad things happen to
>>good people and good things happen to bad people. There is nothing
>>supernatural in this observation nor does it in any way diminish
>>ultimate trustworthiness in the unknown unknown. It is simply the
>>way life is and the way it is is that sometimes we get crushed in
>>accidents where we happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
>>
>>Jim Baumbach
>>
>>
>>John Cock wrote:
>>>Jim, could you have missed Margaret's point? ~John
>>>
>>>
>>>----------
>>>From:
>>><mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net>dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
>>>[ mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Jim Rippey
>>>Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 2:54 PM
>>>To: 'Colleague Dialogue'
>>>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Spong on Virginia Tech and RC Pedophiliacs
>>>
>>>
>>>I guess I am a heretic in Margaret's eyes. If God-given free will
>>>means anything, then if a sick man chooses to gun down 30 some
>>>people, I cannot see how it diminishes God to say that "they
>>>happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time." I simply
>>>can't believe such events are all part of "God's good plan."
>>>However, I do respect Margaret's nerve/chutzpah in stating her
>>>deep faith, though I don't share it. And I applaud her
>>>sensitivity and humility in facing overabundance when there is so
>>>much hunger and poverty in the world. I believe I am called to do
>>>what I can to ameliorate such conditions, though, too often, "the
>>>spirit is willing but the flesh is weak."
>>>
>>>Jim Rippey, Bellevue, NE
>>>
>>>
>>>----------
>>>From:
>>><mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net>dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
>>>[mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Margaret Helen Aiseayew
>>>Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 11:18 AM
>>>To: Colleague Dialogue
>>>Cc: <mailto:Dialogue at wedgeblade.net>Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
>>>Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Spong on Virginia Tech and RC Pedophiliacs
>>>
>>>I deeply appreciate the Spong postings, but was so aghast at one
>>>comment in this last one that I felt compelled to go out on the
>>>web and write to Spong himself. After a bit a time passed (I've
>>>been working on my sermon for Sunday and the scripture is Saul's
>>>transformation) I felt like I should post to the whole list my note.
>>>
>>>Dear Rev. Spong,
>>>I get and read many of your sermons, but was utterly dismayed in
>>>your reflections on the VPI tragedy. You used a phrase I have come
>>>to abhor, "in the wrong place at the wrong time." I sincerely hope
>>>to not seem simplistic, but over the last sixty years as my faith
>>>has grown, I have come to believe that this is not possible. It is
>>>a part of being participant in the vast mystery that is my God. I
>>>do not know, nor can I understand the why and wherefore of things.
>>>I can know that I am mortal, and give thanks. I can understand
>>>that prayer will not necessarily change that, and give thanks. I
>>>can move about the world in utter insecurity (teacing adult
>>>Christian education in 34 countries) and face down machine guns
>>>and feel "lucky" to come home, and give thanks. I can suffer panic
>>>attacks in the cereal aisle of my local grocery because I am so
>>>overwhelmed by the abundance there, that is so lacking in so many
>>>places of world and not understand how I have the priviledge,
>>>demand or option to confront the horror of our consumption, and
>>>give thanks. But in no circumstance does my faith, my belief in
>>>the ultimate trustworthiness of the unknown unknown, give me
>>>permission to say I have been in the wrong place at the wrong
>>>time. To me that is wrong headed and diminishes God to a rational
>>>understandability that would be the ultimate horror.
>>>
>>>Just a thought from someone who appreciates you and yours. (in
>>>full awareness of the awesome audacity and sheer nerve/hutzpah of saying so)
>>>Grace and Peace be unto you,
>>>Margaret
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Dialogue
>>> mailing
>>> list <mailto:Dialogue at wedgeblade.net>Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
>>> http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_wedgeblade.net
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free
>>> Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.6/770 -
>>> Release Date: 4/20/2007 6:43 PM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Dialogue mailing list
>><mailto:Dialogue at wedgeblade.net>Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
>>http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_wedgeblade.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Paula
>>
>> _______________________________________________ Dialogue
>> mailing
>> list <mailto:Dialogue at wedgeblade.net>Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
>> http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_wedgeblade.net
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free
>> Edition. Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.6/770 -
>> Release Date: 4/20/2007 6:43 PM
>_______________________________________________
>Dialogue mailing list
>Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
>http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_wedgeblade.net
>
>
>
>
>401 North Beverly Way
>Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
>+1 623-936-8671
>+1 623-363-3277
>jfwiegel at yahoo.com
>
>Now and then it's good to pause in the pursuit of happiness and just
>be happy. Guillaume Apollinaire
>
>
>Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
>Check out
><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM->new
>cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>_______________________________________________
>Dialogue mailing list
>Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
>http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_wedgeblade.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/dialogue_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20070422/5d6bd0dd/attachment-0001.html
More information about the Dialogue
mailing list