[Dialogue] Spong on Virginia Tech and RC Pedophiliacs: All of history conspired

Sun Apr 22 20:34:22 EDT 2007

As one who appreciates Calvin and not an oversimplification of what he
wrote, I believe that Paula's well articulated point is that once something
happens you are grateful for the hand that you have been dealt because it is
what it is. Calvin certainly made judgments about historical choices and was
not some fatalistic idiot. I remember many of us and especially Joe Pierce
saying that God is a relational term which embraces the given rather than
curse it. I for one, resonate with that. If you do get assassinated,
however, may you rest in PEACE.  (This is not an attempt to start a new
string. It is just a thought)

Cheers

Carlos R. Zervigon, PMP

Zervigon International, Ltd.

817 Antonine St.

New Orleans, LA  70115  USA

504 894-9868 Mobile: 504 908-0762

carlos at zervigon.com

http://www.zervigon.com

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From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Jim Baumbach
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 6:56 PM
To: Colleague Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Spong on Virginia Tech and RC Pedophiliacs: All of
history conspired

Paula, I'm not sure what the message is that you are trying to send but
there is a real danger in construing the events of history leading up to
this moment and Calvin's notion of predestination.  Whether you choose to
anthropomorphize the time dimension called history to say "all of history
conspired" to bring us to this point or you find yourself deciding the will
of God or you are a co-creator with God, history does not decide what the
future will be.  As a being of free will, I can participate in creating
history as far as the physics and chemistry of this planet allow.  I may see
the gunman pull the trigger but my physical limitations can not move my body
fast enough to get out of the way of the speeding bullet.  Was that a
conspiracy of history to plunk me dead?  Was it a conspiracy of a Chinaman
4,000 years ago who invented gunpowder in order to have me assassinated?  It
was never a meaningful insight to me to say that all of history conspired to
bring the Holocaust into our lives.  There are simply those events occurring
in which some poor unfortunate souls happen to get in the way.  And that for
me is the nature of God's universe.

Paula Philbrook wrote: 

Remember the phrase,

    all of history conspired  all of history conspired  

On 4/21/07, Jim Baumbach <wtw0bl at new.rr.com> wrote: 

John, maybe both you and Margaret missed some point in Spong's essay as well
as Margaret's strong response to the phrase Spong used.  I had a similar
response as Jim did when I read Margaret's letter.  Her abhorrence of the
phrase "...wrong place at the wrong time,"  would imply that she would be
more satisfied with the opposite statement, "...right place at the right
time."  I can't say for sure that is what Margaret had in mind but I also
revolt at the notion that somehow God guided the hapless victims into the
paths of those fatal bullets.  And it gets even worse to imply that the
victims (if one can actually use that term in this discourse) were to blame
for their stupidity in deciding to be there. The universe that I happen to
live in is one where bad things happen to good people and good things happen
to bad people.  There is nothing supernatural in this observation nor does
it in any way diminish ultimate trustworthiness in the unknown unknown.  It
is simply the way life is and the way it is is that sometimes we get crushed
in accidents where we happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

Jim Baumbach

John Cock wrote: 

Jim, could you have missed Margaret's point? ~John

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From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net [
<mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net>
mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Jim Rippey
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 2:54 PM
To: 'Colleague Dialogue'
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Spong on Virginia Tech and RC Pedophiliacs 

I guess I am a heretic in Margaret's eyes.  If God-given free will means
anything, then if a sick man chooses to gun down 30 some people, I cannot
see how it diminishes God to say that "they happened to be at the wrong
place at the wrong time."   I simply can't believe such events are all part
of "God's good plan." However, I do respect Margaret's nerve/chutzpah in
stating her deep faith, though I don't share it.   And I applaud her
sensitivity and humility in facing overabundance when there is so much
hunger and poverty in the world.  I believe I am called to do what I can to
ameliorate such conditions, though, too often, "the spirit is willing but
the flesh is weak."    

Jim Rippey, Bellevue, NE  

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From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Margaret Helen
Aiseayew
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 11:18 AM
To: Colleague Dialogue
Cc: Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Spong on Virginia Tech and RC Pedophiliacs 

I deeply appreciate the Spong postings, but was so aghast at one comment in
this last one that I felt compelled to go out on the web and write to Spong
himself.  After a bit a time passed (I've been working on my sermon for
Sunday and the scripture is Saul's transformation) I felt like I should post
to the whole list my note. 

Dear Rev. Spong,
I get and read many of your sermons, but was utterly dismayed in your
reflections on the VPI tragedy. You used a phrase I have come to abhor, "in
the wrong place at the wrong time." I sincerely hope to not seem simplistic,
but over the last sixty years as my faith has grown, I have come to believe
that this is not possible. It is a part of being participant in the vast
mystery that is my God. I do not know, nor can I understand the why and
wherefore of things. I can know that I am mortal, and give thanks. I can
understand that prayer will not necessarily change that, and give thanks. I
can move about the world in utter insecurity (teacing adult Christian
education in 34 countries) and face down machine guns and feel "lucky" to
come home, and give thanks. I can suffer panic attacks in the cereal aisle
of my local grocery because I am so overwhelmed by the abundance there, that
is so lacking in so many places of world and not understand how I have the
priviledge, demand or option to confront the horror of our consumption, and
give thanks. But in no circumstance does my faith, my belief in the ultimate
trustworthiness of the unknown unknown, give me permission to say I have
been in the wrong place at the wrong time. To me that is wrong headed and
diminishes God to a rational understandability that would be the ultimate
horror. 

Just a thought from someone who appreciates you and yours. (in full
awareness of the awesome audacity and sheer nerve/hutzpah of saying so)
Grace and Peace be unto you,
Margaret

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-- 
Paula 

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