[Dialogue] Emailing: US Deserter Feared Torture Orders CommonDreams.org.htm
Harry Wainwright
h-wainwright at charter.net
Sun Sep 7 19:12:09 EDT 2008
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Published on Sunday, September 7, 2008 by The Toronto Star
<http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/491933>
US Deserter Feared Torture Orders
Arabic-speaking soldier may prompt Canada to wade into legal debate
by Michelle Shephard
Peter Jemley is unique among the growing ranks of war resisters who have
sought refuge in Canada.
[Peter Jemley fled the U.S. military after concluding his training was
leading him to a possible torture role. Sept. 3, 2008. (ASHLEY
HUTCHESON/TORONTO STAR)]
<http://www.commondreams.org/files/article_images/jemley.jpg> For one thing,
he's old by military standards. The only reason the army considered the
38-year-old recruit three years ago was because the age cap had been raised
to fill the U.S. military's growing void.
The Tacoma, Wash., father of two young children also bucks the soldier
stereotype. Jemley is a college history major, both quiet and fervently
independent. If describing a bad situation he's likely to say it "sucked,"
then apologize for his profanity.
Now Jemley's reasons for deserting set him apart too, and make his case a
historic first.
He wants Canada to accept him as a refugee because he's opposed to torture.
Jemley argues that as one of only a small number of Arabic linguists with
top security clearance, he could be forced to violate international law by
participating in the interrogations of terrorism suspects. It was something
he hadn't considered when he enlisted in 2005 and was handpicked to undergo
two years of intense training due to his adeptness with languages.
Only last February did he discover that his government had sanctioned new
rules on how terrorism suspects could be interrogated. He believes it's
torture and when he realized he might be asked to be a part of it, he fled.
"It's a soldier's obligation to say `no' if their commander is doing things
that are criminally complicit," Jemley, now 42, said in a recent interview
in Toronto. "I think everyone is agreeing now that torture is really what
has been going on ... I have every reason to believe that from my small pool
that I belong to, with my credentials, that I'd be ordered to do such
things."
`Torture' has become a much-debated word with profound legal implications
since the 9/11 attacks and the U.S. administration's decision to re-write
the laws of war.
Detainees held at Guantanamo Bay and the undisclosed CIA prisons around the
world have claimed widespread abuse. The CIA has admitted to using `coercive
techniques' during interrogations, such as waterboarding, a process whereby
agents simulate drownings.
Much of the legal community considers this treatment torture and point to
international laws such as the Geneva Conventions, which were established
after WWII to impose legal restrictions on the barbarity of war.
Canada so far has largely been able to sidestep the debate about torture and
the Bush administration's post-9/11 policies. Other cases of deserters in
Canada have focused on the larger question of the legality of the Iraq war.
About a dozen cases are working their way through the refugee board and
courts with varying legal arguments and one deserter has already been
deported back to face a court martial.
The issue of Guantanamo's legality arose earlier this year in the Supreme
Court case concerning Canadian detainee Omar Khadr. The high court justices
ruled that Canadian agents had acted illegally by interrogating the Toronto
teenager in 2003 and 2004. But the high court relied on a U.S. Supreme Court
decision that deemed Guantanamo illegal, rather than debating issues of
torture and indefinite detention specifically.
Jemley's case is the first to deal with the issue directly. The CIA has
admitted it uses acts such as waterboarding. There's evidence that
Guantanamo detainees were subjected to programs such as sleep deprivation,
intimidation with dogs and sexual humiliation. If these tactics are torture,
thereby violating international law, Jemley argues he could be prosecuted
for war crimes if he participates.
Canada must decide whether the U.S. administration has sanctioned torture in
deciding his case, his lawyer says.
"There are specific rules for soldiers and the basic idea is nobody should
participate in torture, ever," said Jemley's lawyer Jeffrey House. "Nobody
should associate themselves with torture or violations of the Geneva
Conventions because if we start to wink at violations of the Geneva
Conventions they're no longer law, they're just guidelines."
Calls to Jemley's commander at the 341st Military Intelligence Battalion at
Camp Murray, Tacoma, were not returned this week. But a letter of "unexcused
absence" emailed to Jemley from Maj. Brian Bodenman outlined what penalties
he could face if he failed to show up to training by yesterday's deadline.
Punishment includes a court martial with possibility of jail time or a
discharge and transfer to "inactive ready reserve." The latter means Jemley
could still be called to duty for a period of five years.
"To me it's like being an indentured servant. You can't leave, and you can't
give your skills back," Jemley said.
Since the U.S. invaded Iraq in March 2003, there is no accurate account of
how many deserters have fled to Canada - best guess is a couple hundred,
with many remaining underground having not filed a refugee claim.
Comparisons are often made to the Vietnam War when thousands came to Canada.
But during Vietnam there was a draft, and Prime Minister Stephen Harper's
Conservative government has little sympathy for today's deserters.
Jemley's decision to join the army was not one he took lightly, nor one
borne of patriotic duty. "It wasn't a political decision. I didn't really
like the Bush administration any more then, than I do now, but Iraqis are
people too and I'm not afraid of doing difficult things. So I thought I
could help," Jemley said.
After scoring extremely high on the army's Defense Language Aptitude Battery
test he was asked if he'd become a linguist and was sent to the Army's
language school in Monterey, Calif., for two years. Upon graduation, he
spent a brief stint at the secretive National Security Agency, the U.S.
government's electronic eavesdropping agency, and then sought independent
contracts where he could work until his unit was deployed.
In February, he signed a lucrative contract with Washington's Office of
Military Commissions, the legal arm of the Guantanamo trials that is
prosecuting a couple dozen detainees, including Khadr. It was when Jemley
started doing his own research into the Guantanamo cases that he came up
with media reports about the waterboarding of suspects. When he was asked to
sign an addendum to his OMC contract, which added that he must be available
to be on-call for "other language related assignments," he refused and was
fired.
A second contract offered him work in unspecified locations with "the
agency" based in northern Virginia. No one would confirm it was the CIA and
when he couldn't get answers about what he'd be doing he turned down the
job.
By then he knew he was trapped. These were positions he could refuse, but if
he was ordered to duty he couldn't say no.
"I did everything I was supposed to. I'm not afraid to be deployed. I'm not
afraid to die," Jemley said.
"(But) I'm ashamed about what's going on."
His wife Sarah and children aged 8 and 3 have remained in Tacoma until Sarah
can finish her master's nursing degree. They hate the separation but Jemley
says he's confident in his decision.
"I know it sounds glib but I mean it. If one less person gets tortured then
it'll all be worth it."
C 2008 The Toronto Star
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Bob Pomeroy September 7th, 2008 6:38 pm
My bad too, stalwart snowwolf, it may be a reverse Polish Bill of Attainder,
and there are no SCt decisions on either. A Bill of Attainder is a
legislative declaration of guilt. Depends on whether you're pitching or
catching. It's a Bill of Attainder because it renders those "Not
Guilty"(before it's enactment)"Guilty"(afterwards), on the same facts. The
law is expressly for the purpose of retroactivley exonerating torturers and
other malcreants, and by necessary implication, ie concommitantly,
inculpates those who refused their orders, just as conclusively.
Apples, buddy
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Bob Pomeroy September 7th, 2008 6:27 pm
All's gone silent on the CD front.
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seriousprofessor September 7th, 2008 6:32 pm
Yeh. Too quiet.
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z September 7th, 2008 5:45 pm
"Speaking as a Native American former member of the USMC, and Vietnam era
vet, I can only speak of my own experience. If I had been given an order to
torture, or kill a "non-combatant" the "giver of the order" would have been
in more danger of death than the intended recipient"
So how many "non-combatants" were killed in Vietnam, again?
BTW I really don't see what your ethnicity has to do with any of this.
For all of you saying "if his story is true", do any of you doubt that our
government is engaged in widespread torture?
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TruthTeller September 7th, 2008 4:51 pm
According to the UCMJ, it is the soldier's responsibility to REFUSE TO OBEY
an illegal order. If this guy had any courage, he would have done exactly
that, not run away to Canada.
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Bob Pomeroy September 7th, 2008 5:45 pm
Please refer to R.M.O. Bywee's query and my response below. Bushy's new law
blessed torture so that what was previously an illegal order was legalized.
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TruthTeller September 7th, 2008 6:41 pm
Wrong. German "laws" authorized most of what was done in WWII. It was STILL
illegal, and we STILL prosecuted Germans who were "only obeying orders".
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Bob Pomeroy September 7th, 2008 6:58 pm
I couldn't agree more passionately, TT. I think everyone forgot about this,
except maybe his lawyer. It's there big and bold as the Bill of Rights, but
it's never had a consitutional case on it, to the best of my knowledge.
Maybe nobody was ever that stupid before. It's not only illegal viz
international law, it's against the Constitution. I really want to hear what
the Strict Constructionalist contract of adhesion social theorists have to
say about it.
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Saturnalia September 7th, 2008 6:50 pm
Which makes bush's laws that justify and allow the torture of prisoners are
also illegal. Of course, unlike nazi germany, the usa is not defeated nor is
it occupied by a victorious power willing to enforce the nurenburg laws.
Unless you hope Obama will prosecute after Jan. '09...
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NativeSon September 7th, 2008 4:24 pm
Hey Mike------
I was writing---irreverently of Mercenaries------and in relation to their
"services".
But thanks anyway
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MikeCorbeil September 7th, 2008 4:13 pm
Nativeson wrote,
""If you sell your services cheap, then you are cheap" (paraphrased;
Tacitus)
"Services offered at below market value are below market value in quality"
Sun Tzu."
Tacitus and Sun Tzu were evidently blind or half-sighted, relatively little
experienced, or else and certainly not speaking of workers today; for today,
we have to sometimes underprice our services in order to just survive, put
food on the table, a roof over heads, ..., and this sometimes requires
accepting to be even severely low-balled in terms of what the actual fair
market rates are for whatever the services in question are.
F.e., computer professionals and during the 1990s in the U.S., and perhaps
ongoing today, had to compete against massive annual importations of foreign
workers really to be used only for the purpose of globalization, replacing
U.S. citizen professionals and massive offshoring of jobs, and the former
related to the latter; to train the foreign workers for when they'd be sent
back to their home countries, where they'd manage the offshored jobs for the
U.S. corporations. So unless fortunate, you had to accept low-balling. You
didn't want to be low-balled, but it's all you got for "offers" and you had
bills to pay, or else be totally homeless. Thankfully, the U.S. had laws
that could be used to sue for retroactive correction of compensation, but
not everyone (including myself) knew of this law in due time, for there's
very a short period for the statute of limitations, for how soon such
lawsuits must be filed to be heard in courts of law. The period is six to a
whopping max. twelve months, so you need to know about the law like nearly
right away; there's very little time to waste for filing.
Meanwhile, you can be lowballed only because it's the general way in the
overall market, getting nothing but lowball offers, and you have bills to
pay, all while nonetheless providing top-quality, professional services;
because you have bills to pay, need food and lodging, and transportation,
and not everyone keeps the lowball rates in mind when actually working. I
don't keep wage in mind when working and this permits making management seem
as incompetent as it is or helpless without your good work.
It's like when needing to fight on the streets; not every fight is
guaranteed to be the same, you can need to vary your methods of defence from
one confrontational situation to another. In the work world, when very many
citizens are replaced with swarms of imported foreign workers and many jobs
are or have been offshored, then you can need to fight back in whatever
manners that come to mind and seem to be potential winners.
In bodybuilding they have the stupid phrase or motto of "no pain, no gain",
and it's a serious falsehood in athletics, where physical pain is sign of
injury or soon injury, danger. But it is a phrase that fits in many other
aspects of life on Earth for humans, those who know the most pain are the
most honourable, etc., and humane, unless their suffering has rendered a
person insane, which sometimes happens. Sometimes the world of work,
employment is the same way, first pain, to achieve gain, but you don't
achieve that point unless you prove to be fitting to receive it; the bosses
figure.
Sun Tzu evidently knew nothing of today's world of work. Maybe what he said
was fitting with the reality he immediately knew of where he grew up, etc.,
but his above-quoted view does NOT apply in general terms. Life is more
variable than he was allowing or pretending to be able to allow; given he
couldn't change reality and its variations. Came up with some interesting
views, but how well did he succeed and how many slaves did he need in order
to not seem to be poor and in need to contend with foreign imports, workers,
used to only replace local citizens, etc.? He probably knew little, if
anything, of this kind of doing "business".
Consider how rich the elites are compared to how poor they critically
deserve to be; rewarded, by and among themselves, but you'd never pay $5 per
hour for their labour to build a mere house, much less govern a country,
ever much less when that country is a superpower. Consider how rich and how
fast rich rappers can become when selling t-shirts for $15 or $20 while
paying the workers who make these 10, 15, 20, 30 cents an hour, and they
truly work, plenty, but they remain forever poor.
Ever heard of charlatan tricks? Sun Tzu would've been wise to consider a lot
more than he did when he came up with the idea of the above quoted words of
his.
Jesus was better; he illustrated that everything's really upside down,
reverse of what should be, ...; the accused are often the innocent while the
accusers are like ... in Crucible, f.e. It's better, because he gave the
accurate picture of general reality, but while his story also illustrates
the rich pigs of society, as juxtaposites to a sane and just world or life.
Overall, far more realistic!
I've read that Sun Tzu made sense regarding war, imperialism, colonialism,
... though.
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Sag September 7th, 2008 3:02 pm
When it comes to the Bush administration, the insane Cheney and all the
others who assisted and abetted the men and women of the armed services who
participated in torture I simply have no comment...except...
ELECT OBAMA!
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NativeSon September 7th, 2008 2:23 pm
Several postings here show that there is a certain number of "vets" who
agree upon the matter as a result of their own former service.
Mohamed Ali's refusal was based upon his religious beliefs and had the
Vietnam war been a "Jihad" he would have fought. He himself admitted that in
an interview with Penthouse Magazine in the early 70's. He still did the
right thing
even then.
Speaking as a Native American former member of the USMC, and Vietnam era
vet, I can only speak of my own experience. If I had been given an order to
torture, or kill a "non-combatant", or even a wounded enemy, the "giver of
the order" would have been in more danger of death than the intended
recipient. I was schooled in the Code of Conduct and it is very important
that the reader who is not a veteran understand this point. The code of
conduct are not "some words on a poster", "on the wall", or in your "field
manual"; they are there to be observed and obeyed by ALL members of the US
Armed Forces. To refuse an illegal order takes courage, and fortitude. You
may face courts martial, you may be ostracized by your "fellows" (none of
mine anyway), you may be treated as a "slacker", a "non-hacker", but as in
my case, you would not be facing charges for killing your superior; simply
because your superior would never be so foolish as to give such an order to
YOU---------.
Had I realized then, what I know now I would never have been there in the
first place. The USA has indulged itself with illegal wars for far too long
now. With the "all volunteer military" those members need to know that they
ARE EXPECTED to refuse illegal orders----being in Afghanistan or Iraq is
illegal and all they are doing is participating with the high level criminal
element known collectively now as the US Military, under orders of the US
Government.
Desertion is a moronic manner to handle the problem. You "run" from yourself
when you are a volunteer that deserts. Stand and take the heat, and you will
always be able to say to yourself that "you did the RIGHT" thing---you may
be talking to yourself---but who else do you live with but yourself.
I could face charges under the "Patriot Act" (a ridiculous piece of
legislation at best) but:
If you are a "volunteer" ---a "Citizen Serving" in the US Military and you
are deployed to any of the "illegal wars" this nation is involved with it is
your OBLIGATION to refuse the orders to even set foot in another nation's
territory if there illegally*. It really is that simple. I would urge every
member of the US Armed Forces now deployed in either Afghanistan or Iraq, to
submit in writing ASAP, your refusal to participate in "organized criminal
activity" even if it is sanctioned by your "government". Only then will you
become a truly Brave American. * See Geneva Accords and Nuremberg
Tribunals/Accords.
If you are a "professional", i.e. one who makes the Military your profession
(a very old profession) then you have the duty, as a professional, to refuse
an illegal order. Besides, if you are a "Professional" and you are not with
Black Water or one of the other "mercenary groups"----you're a "slut" and
just "giving it away"------------for working so cheap, for a country that
will forget you "next week"----unless you run for office then; you'd be the
"Queen of Sluts".
"If you sell your services cheap, then you are cheap" (paraphrased; Tacitus)
"Services offered at below market value are below market value in quality"
Sun Tzu.
Either way, Criminals in High Office, such as the present administration,
would find it impossible to spread their misery without a willing and
compliant co/criminal "Volunteer Military", which is what they have now.
For the reader: This was a posting for Vets, and members of the US
Military---some of the language may be offensive to the
uninitiated----please accept by apology for any offense.
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SnowWolf September 7th, 2008 3:20 pm
If I had been given an order to torture, or kill a "non-combatant", or even
a wounded enemy, the "giver of the order" would have been in more danger of
death than the intended recipient
you are SO right I could kiss you...(just kidding about the kiss part)...but
you are absolutely right
None of these Guys when pressed, can come up with names dates and
places...thats all I ask for...give me proof if you going to smear the
Military
Until I hear some of that I say he's just a run of the mill Coward looking
for sympathy
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Bob Pomeroy September 7th, 2008 5:36 pm
Duh. The date, time and all the particulars are a matter of record, ie, when
bushy signed the reverse polish ex-post facto law that made torture legal
and barred prosecution of torturers. When Jemley enlisted, nobody believed
US tortured, and everybody denied they were. So what was an illegal order
when he enlisted would not have been after bushy changed the law. I guess
they didn't teach mighty snowwolf to read with understanding. But I guess
one need not be thus enabled just to have a "patriotic" opinion.
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SnowWolf September 7th, 2008 5:37 pm
you have NO idea what you're talking about
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Bob Pomeroy September 7th, 2008 6:15 pm
How's that valiant snowwolf? Are you a scholar of constitutional law? At
least I have a degree and a license, and you?
PS It's still OK to bray an opinion though, at least for the time being.
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Saturnalia September 7th, 2008 3:07 pm
I do wonder if the us military is still giving training in what orders must
not be followed. I recall from CFRS Cornwallis that that was a part of a
week's worth of training when I joined the Canadian Forces. After that
training was given it was reinforced when nco's knowingly gave unlawful
orders and we had the fun of suffering the times when a recruit followed
those orders. (that was before the somalia/airborn incident)
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ezeflyer September 7th, 2008 2:16 pm
Why did he join in the first place? The military is not a democracy but a
killing machine run as a totalitarian dictatorship.
An ignorant kid enlists for economic or misguided reasons, but Jemley is
well educated and should have known better than to enlist and become a pawn
of conservative chickenhawks.
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Bob Pomeroy September 7th, 2008 5:53 pm
Maybe he believed we didn't torture when he enlisted. Is that too
complicated an idea?
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SnowWolf September 7th, 2008 4:01 pm
read the story...he was 38...I'd HOPE he knew what he was doing...when I was
38 I'd been in almost 20 years
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ezeflyer September 7th, 2008 4:35 pm
He'd been in for 3 years, during the Bush/Cheney neocon chickenhawk regime.
Speaks volumes as to why he joined.
To his credit, few change their minds once military brainwashed. That he did
so because he wanted to get out of there and back to his family or just for
ethical reasons, it seems he acted bravely in defying the military.
After 20 years in, any lifer would have been coopted by the military and the
necessary jingoism and religious fervor that will make a soldier willing to
kill and die on command for any cause without questioning why.
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SnowWolf September 7th, 2008 5:39 pm
Sorry...I misunderstood what you were saying before...My Bad
but your little rant about jingoism is untrue...don't get stuck on stupid
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willflow September 7th, 2008 1:00 pm
What good does it do to provide names, places, dates, or crimes? When most
before any who should come forth have seen a government punish only those
that come forth. There have been countless crimes brought up, only to be
ignored by MSM and government. And the few that have been forced out, only
lower ranked personal have been punished. Even when there's a trail leading
to high ranking officers. Remember, when it came to the pictures, the grunts
went to jail, the rest was swept under the rug. Its kind of hard for those
stuck over there to fight illegal acts, when most of those around them are
engaged in a reality video game. You have a generation of kids over there
that grew up playing brutal video games. They all thought it would be cool
to do it live. And now you wonder why so many come back scared for life. It
amazes me how anyone could even ask this question after so much time has
past with a government that has shown its true intent.
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Saturnalia September 7th, 2008 12:55 pm
Snowwolf;
He's not on trial yet, moreover for him to give names, places and dates
outside of a trial might be violating the official secrets act that the
states is sure to have. He's given enough information for the tale to be
credible. He's courageous enough to say no, some might argue that he should
have stayed in the states and when actually ordered to torture - disobey
then.
That's the tricky bit. In spite of the training, he might never have had an
occasion to use it. If that is, or would have been, the case then he had no
right to desert.
>From my POV as a former sailor, he had no right to desert at all. He did
join, he did get paid and trained, he did have other options. Certainly
exercising the option to disobey an order is one that might have you spend
time in jail. Then again, M. Ali - the boxer - earned more respect from
people by going to jail than did any of the other draft refuseniks did by
going to Canada.
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SnowWolf September 7th, 2008 4:32 pm
If just ONE of these Guys came up with a Name, a date and Place, certain
Members of Congress would LOVE to see the Army jumping through its Asshole
trying to investigate it....
I say these Guys are full of Shit...
If I was given an order like that not only would I disobey it but I would
make sure every reporter in the theatre of operations knew about it...I
wouldn't desert...I'd be the one in the right
The New York Times devoted 65 front page covers to Abu Ghraib...how many do
you think they'd devote to Official Torture Orders? 165?...265?...
This would be Pulitzer prize material if true...why didn't the Journalist
ask "Who told you to do this"?
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Bob Pomeroy September 7th, 2008 5:57 pm
Sure, until they legislated what was illegal into being legal. Remember
Alyssa Peterson, you can google the name.
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Saturnalia September 7th, 2008 5:19 pm
Did they ask the soldiers at Abu Ghraib 'who ordered you to do this?' No,
they did not. Bush ordered that behaviour, and he has gotten away with it.
The members of congress are not going to be seen as being soft on 'terrorism
suspects', they -unlike bush - have to worry about reelection.
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jfredmuggs September 7th, 2008 2:05 pm
I really wanted to disagree with you. But then I thought it over a bit and I
realize you may be right. But, given that the MSM only covers the deserters,
we never hear of any soldiers who stay to fight the illegal orders. So would
that then be an empty gesture, given the near certainty that an anonymous,
faceless grunt going to jail for refusing to obey an illegal order would be
completely lost in the shuffle? Or quietly and honorably discharged with no
chance to make a statement?
It's a fine line.
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Saturnalia September 7th, 2008 3:00 pm
A nasty line, I want to disagree with my own opinion.
You are quite right in saying that it'd likely be an empty gesture, the
media wouldn't be specific about the trial - if any- nor would the state
allow the defence of disobeying an unlawful order to be made public due to
state secrets.
In a way it's better that he went to canada to draw attention to the issue.
I'm sure it'll be a factor in the Canadian election called for this october,
idiot pm decided to break his own fixed date election law and called one
early.
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jfredmuggs September 7th, 2008 3:25 pm
Very true indeed. The military can always cook up some innuendo regarding
the circumstances of any discharge.
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Bob Pomeroy September 7th, 2008 12:43 pm
Remember Alyssa Peterson
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Gilberto September 7th, 2008 12:42 pm
Thank you, thank you, and thank you!!
Peter Jemley has understood our history and Tom Paine would be delighted
that we still have thinking folks who understand our Constitution and Bill
of Rights. Yes, a true patriot and I truly hope we too will have the inner
strength to do what is right and what is necessary to save our humanity. Is
not about political sides, it is where your thinking and heart meets for a
better world. Common sense lives...
Thank you, all folks of truth and compassion.
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SnowWolf September 7th, 2008 12:28 pm
As a Retired Enlisted Member I concure with biwee's assessment of Illegal
Orders...they are NOT to be obeyed
However I also notice none of these Conscientious Deserters (for want of a
better term) seem able to produce Names, Places, and Dates where these
incidents occurred
isn't that odd
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Bob Pomeroy September 7th, 2008 6:01 pm
Because it happened when CinC got the law changed so that what had been
previously illegal was made legal, in this case. Maybe some of the others
were not in a position to deal his way with the changed definition of legal
order.
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Seaweed September 7th, 2008 12:23 pm
It takes zero courage to kill and/or torture. There is only one requirement
to kill and torture - a lack of human decency.
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biwee September 7th, 2008 11:53 am
As a retired military officer, I can assure you that there is NO requirement
to obey an illegal order. The order to torture captives is illegal. Those in
the CIA, US military, and in the various contractors who tortured captives
KNEW at the time that it was wrong and illegal. The evil Republicans who
support the torture of captives late in the 2006 session of Congress passed
law to make these criminals who tortured captives beyond punishment. Is this
not some sort of ex post facto law??
Only when these who tortured captives, and those above them who sanctioned
this torture, are brought to justice will this nation recover its former
moral position in the world. The very SAME logic used to kill Nazis after
the Nuremberg trials must be now applied to Bush and the evil NeoCons.
Without that, we are DOOMED.
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Bob Pomeroy September 7th, 2008 5:44 pm
R.M.O. Bywee: I guess it's a Reverse Polish Ex Post Facto Law. It made
illegal orders legal after the fact, such that anyone who refused to obey
what was an illegal order before the law was passed was guilty of refusing
to obey a legal order after the law was passed, as to the same order. IE,
those who refused to obey an order which was illegal before the new law were
thereby legislatively determined to be guilty of refusing an order made
legal after the fact by the new law.
I'll bet the wise snowwolf can't understand that, but I hope you do. Last I
knew officers could read with understanding.
Then there's the case of Allyson Peterson, who died of a non-combat gunshot
after refusing to participate in torture. Some said suicide, others have
found more sinister implications.
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seriousprofessor September 7th, 2008 11:37 am
Note well the patriot.
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