[Dialogue] ToP Methods

Wed Oct 7 09:09:08 CDT 2009

Without question, there is a life address  in individuals and in whole
groups - when ToP methods are used well. It¹s transparent, as I believe it
should be. People¹s individual  lives and organizational cultures do change.
People and organizations make substantial changes in the way they operate.
We¹ve seen it all over the place. We see it happen in training event and in
facilitated events.

My memory and theory - - -
As I recall, the substitution of ³Experiential² for ³Existential happened
when we began formally teaching ToP methods.  Existential is not a term in
common parlance. We know there¹s a life address inherent in our facilitation
processes.  We want to include it and use it with intentionality, because we
want to make an impact. My guess is that those who designed the first
courses thought through the terminology very carefully. Experiential is a
term that can be grasped by those who want to facilitate and do training.
It¹s easier to swallow.

I do think a couple of things have happened. I feel we have lost some of he
edge simply from contextual drift over time. The more psychological meaning
of experiential is easier for many to grasp than the original philosophical
intent; so there¹s a tendency in that direction. I¹ve heard people
substitute ³visceral² for this aim. There are also those who use that aim to
refer to the quality of experience they want people to have during the
session. That¹s what I think is meant by ³watering down.²

I also think there are those who want the deeper intents to be more obvious.
We want people to face reality, grasp their possibility and act out of a
posture of responsibility etc.   To me this leads to using the Existential /
Experiential objective as a kind of ³hidden agenda.² As if we have something
to teach when we are facilitating. As if there is some subtle content
³message² we want them to get. As if a facilitated event should be an RS1.
Obviously, that¹s an exaggeration, but I¹ve seen some hints of it. It makes
people scratch their heads about us.

My question has to do with what we really mean and intend with these parts
of our design process. I believe we need both of these dimension in our
methodology. I know I struggle to communicate the real intent behind them in
ways that real people can understand, integrate and use.

We do make money doing this. We¹ve always dreamed about the ability to earn
a decent living doing what we do best. It has to do with being sustainable
in the fullest sense of the term.  Superficial use of our methods will
damage our reputation, dampen our impact and lose us money.

\\/

"Richard Alton"  wrote:

> Great QUESTION, Jim! Are we changing lives or just making a 'fast buck' in the
> market? I struggle with the question of evangelism, but like the WORD.
> Dick
> 
> Richard H.T. Alton International Consultants and Associates 'building global
> bridges' 166 N. Humphrey Ave, Apt, 1N Oak Park, IL 60302 T:1.773.344.7172
> richard.alton at gmail.com Don't let the fear of striking out hold you back  Babe
> Ruth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 05:26:50 -0700
> From: jfwiegel at yahoo.com
> To: dialogue at wedgeblade.net; oe at wedgeblade.net
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ToP Methods
> 
> So, here is my question:  Looking at facilitation as we developed it and
> compared to address your life pedagogy like in RS-1 and then compared to the
> impact which Joe could generate on individuals and groups -- are these all the
> same thing, or quite different things?
> 
> If more or less the same, how would you describe this at its best?  Has this
> style of evangelism evolved and become refined or has it gotten watered down?
> 
> If different, how, and which are needed these days?
>  
> Jim
> 
> Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a pun.  G. K. Chesterton
> 
> 
> Jim Wiegel
> 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
> +1  623-936-8671   +1  623-363-3277
>    jfwiegel at yahoo.com   www.partnersinparticipation.com
> <http://www.partnersinparticipation.com>
> 
> 
> 
> From: W. J. <synergi at yahoo.com>
> To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>; dialogue at wedgeblade.net
> Sent: Tue, October 6, 2009 7:17:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ToP Methods
> 
> You can see why there were different Gospels in the Bible, and that was long
> before Wiegel was summoned to the Holy Land to preach his revised standard
> version of the Facilitator's Gospel. "Experiential Aim"? Where did that come
> from? Isn't that the new Liberalism creeping in to dilute the authentic EI
> Orthodoxy? Everybody who knew JWM knows it is "Existential Aim" -- and you
> better believe it really addressed your existence just to be around the Old
> Man.
> And the "O" in ORID -- wasn't that originally just "Impressionistic"? And
> wasn't "R" originally "Subjective"? And wasn't "D" originally "Theological"?
> So ORID = ISIT?
> Ah, the problems of generational transmission of the authentic received
> canonical tradition! (Big Clue: I'm laughing!)
>  
> Marshall
> 
>> >From where I sit, ORID reminds me of King Henry's death sentence pronounced
>> on Thomas Becket: "Will no One RID me of this meddlesome priest?" Or
>> something like that.
> 
> 
> From: James Wiegel <jfwiegel at yahoo.com>
> To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>; Colleague Dialogue
> <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 3:33:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] ToP Methods
> 
> As I recall, these were an old, old idea.  When we were putting together the
> ToP curriculum with those horizontal bubble tables we added in Rational
> Objective and Experiential objective to the manuals -- after 3 or 4 years
> someone expressed confusion between Rational "Objective" and Experiential
> "Objective" and "Objective" as in ORID, so when the manual was redone we
> changed to Rational Aim and Experiential Aim.
> 
> In actuality, though, there is a very rich and wise diversity in the ways by
> which ToP facilitators actually focus and prepare themselves.  It would be a
> great contribution to our craft to hear from many people how they do this . .
>  
> Jim
> 
> Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a pun.  G. K. Chesterton
> 
> 
> Jim Wiegel
> 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
> +1  623-936-8671   +1  623-363-3277
>    jfwiegel at yahoo.com   www.partnersinparticipation.com
> <http://www.partnersinparticipation.com>
> 
> 
> 
> From: Wayne Nelson <wnelson at ica-associates.ca>
> To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>; Order Ecumenical
> <oe at wedgeblade.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 3:23:46 PM
> Subject: [Oe List ...] ToP Methods
> 
> Here¹s a memory question  maybe something you heard.
> 
> When, how and why did we introduce the ideas of using Rational and Existential
> aims when we prepare for a facilitated event or a training event?
> 
> Does anyone know that history? I¹m curious.
> 
> 
> \\/
> < >  < >  < >  < >  < >
> Wayne Nelson - ICA Associates Inc
> ICA - 416-691-2316 - - - Cell  647-229-6910
> http://ica-associates.ca
> 
> 
>  
> 
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< >  < >  < >  < >  < >
Wayne Nelson - ICA Associates Inc
ICA - 416-691-2316 - - - Cell  647-229-6910
http://ica-associates.ca

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