[Dialogue] ToP Methods

Wed Oct 7 13:46:05 CDT 2009

As far as I know, they are supposed to mean the same thing. What you say
points quite directly to a source of what I call contextual drift.

\\/

"Carl Larsen"  wrote:

> Tell me the difference between experiential and existential.  To me,
> Existential means Being. IE, I am.  Experiential means how I, the being,
> experiences the other.
> Carl Larsen
>>  
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>  
>> From:  Wayne Nelson <mailto:wnelson at ica-associates.ca>
>>  
>> To: Colleague Dialogue <mailto:dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
>>  
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 8:09  AM
>>  
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ToP Methods
>>  
>> 
>> Without  question, there is a life address  in individuals and in whole
>> groups - when  ToP methods are used well. It¹s transparent, as I believe it
>> should be.  People¹s individual  lives and organizational cultures do change.
>> People  and organizations make substantial changes in the way they operate.
>> We¹ve seen it all over the place. We see it happen in training event and  in
>> facilitated events.
>> 
>> My memory and theory - - -
>> As I recall, the  substitution of ³Experiential² for ³Existential happened
>> when we began  formally teaching ToP methods.  Existential is not a term in
>> common  parlance. We know there¹s a life address inherent in our facilitation
>> processes.  We want to include it and use it with intentionality, because  we
>> want to make an impact. My guess is that those who designed the first
>> courses thought through the terminology very carefully. Experiential is a
>> term  that can be grasped by those who want to facilitate and do training.
>> It¹s  easier to swallow.
>> 
>> I do think a couple of things have happened. I feel  we have lost some of he
>> edge simply from contextual drift over time. The more  psychological meaning
>> of experiential is easier for many to grasp than the  original philosophical
>> intent; so there¹s a tendency in that direction. I¹ve  heard people
>> substitute ³visceral² for this aim. There are also those who use  that aim to
>> refer to the quality of experience they want people to have during  the
>> session. That¹s what I think is meant by ³watering down.²
>> 
>> I also think there are those who want the deeper intents  to be more obvious.
>> We want people to face reality, grasp their possibility  and act out of a
>> posture of responsibility etc.   To me this leads  to using the Existential /
>> Experiential objective as a kind of ³hidden  agenda.² As if we have something
>> to teach when we are facilitating. As if  there is some subtle content
>> ³message² we want them to get. As if a  facilitated event should be an RS1.
>> Obviously, that¹s an exaggeration, but  I¹ve seen some hints of it. It makes
>> people scratch their heads about us.
>> 
>> My question has to do with what we really mean and intend with these  parts
>> of our design process. I believe we need both of these dimension in our
>> methodology. I know I struggle to communicate the real intent behind them in
>> ways that real people can understand, integrate and use.
>> 
>> We do make  money doing this. We¹ve always dreamed about the ability to earn
>> a decent  living doing what we do best. It has to do with being sustainable
>> in the  fullest sense of the term.  Superficial use of our methods will
>> damage  our reputation, dampen our impact and lose us money.
>> 
>> \\/
>> 
>> "Richard Alton"  wrote:
>> 
>>  
>>> Great QUESTION,  Jim! Are we changing lives or just making a 'fast buck' in
>>> the market? I  struggle with the question of evangelism, but like the  WORD.
>>> Dick
>>> 
>>> Richard H.T. Alton International Consultants and  Associates 'building
>>> global bridges' 166 N. Humphrey Ave, Apt, 1N Oak Park,  IL 60302
>>> T:1.773.344.7172 richard.alton at gmail.com Don't let the fear of  striking out
>>> hold you back  Babe Ruth
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 05:26:50 -0700
>>> From: jfwiegel at yahoo.com
>>> To:  dialogue at wedgeblade.net; oe at wedgeblade.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ToP  Methods
>>> 
>>> So, here is my question:  Looking at facilitation as we  developed it and
>>> compared to address your life pedagogy like in RS-1 and  then compared to
>>> the impact which Joe could generate on individuals and  groups -- are these
>>> all the same thing, or quite different things?
>>> 
>>> If  more or less the same, how would you describe this at its best?  Has
>>> this style of evangelism evolved and become refined or has it gotten watered
>>> down?
>>> 
>>> If different, how, and which are needed these  days?
>>>  
>>> Jim
>>> 
>>> Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a  pun.  G. K. Chesterton
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jim Wiegel
>>> 401 North Beverly Way,  Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
>>> +1  623-936-8671   +1   623-363-3277
>>>    jfwiegel at yahoo.com    www.partnersinparticipation.com
>>> <http://www.partnersinparticipation.com>
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  From: W. J. <synergi at yahoo.com>
>>> To: Order Ecumenical  Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>; dialogue at wedgeblade.net
>>> Sent:  Tue, October 6, 2009 7:17:03 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ToP  Methods
>>> 
>>> You can see why there were different  Gospels in the Bible, and that was
>>> long before Wiegel was summoned to the  Holy Land to preach his revised
>>> standard version of the Facilitator's  Gospel. "Experiential Aim"? Where did
>>> that come from? Isn't that the new  Liberalism creeping in to dilute the
>>> authentic EI Orthodoxy? Everybody who  knew JWM knows it is "Existential
>>> Aim" -- and you better believe it really  addressed your existence just to
>>> be around the Old Man.
>>> And the "O" in  ORID -- wasn't that originally just "Impressionistic"? And
>>> wasn't "R"  originally "Subjective"? And wasn't "D" originally
>>> "Theological"? So ORID =  ISIT?
>>> Ah, the problems of generational transmission of the authentic  received
>>> canonical tradition! (Big Clue: I'm  laughing!)
>>>  
>>> Marshall
>>> 
>>>> >From where I sit, ORID reminds  me of King Henry's death sentence
>>>> pronounced on Thomas Becket: "Will no One  RID me of this meddlesome
>>>> priest?" Or something like  that.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  From: James Wiegel <jfwiegel at yahoo.com>
>>> To: Order  Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>; Colleague Dialogue
>>> <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2009  3:33:45 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] ToP Methods
>>> 
>>> As I recall, these were an old, old idea.  When we were  putting together
>>> the ToP curriculum with those horizontal bubble tables we  added in Rational
>>> Objective and Experiential objective to the manuals --  after 3 or 4 years
>>> someone expressed confusion between Rational "Objective"  and Experiential
>>> "Objective" and "Objective" as in ORID, so when the manual  was redone we
>>> changed to Rational Aim and Experiential Aim.
>>> 
>>> In  actuality, though, there is a very rich and wise diversity in the ways
>>> by  which ToP facilitators actually focus and prepare themselves.  It would
>>> be a great contribution to our craft to hear from many people how they do
>>> this . . 
>>>  
>>> Jim
>>> 
>>> Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of  a pun.  G. K. Chesterton
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jim Wiegel
>>> 401 North Beverly  Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
>>> +1  623-936-8671   +1   623-363-3277
>>>    jfwiegel at yahoo.com    www.partnersinparticipation.com
>>> <http://www.partnersinparticipation.com>
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  From: Wayne Nelson <wnelson at ica-associates.ca>
>>> To:  Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>; Order Ecumenical
>>> <oe at wedgeblade.net>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 3:23:46  PM
>>> Subject: [Oe List ...] ToP Methods
>>> 
>>> Here¹s a memory question  maybe something you  heard.
>>> 
>>> When, how and why did we introduce the ideas of using Rational  and
>>> Existential aims when we prepare for a facilitated event or a training
>>> event?
>>> 
>>> Does anyone know that history? I¹m  curious.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> \\/
>>> < >  < >   < >  < >  < >
>>> Wayne Nelson -  ICA Associates Inc
>>> ICA - 416-691-2316 - - - Cell  647-229-6910
>>> http://ica-associates.ca
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>        
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
>>> <http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/>
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>> Dialogue mailing  list
>>> Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
>>> http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_wedgeblade.net
>> 
>> 
>> < >   < >  < >  < >  < >
>> Wayne Nelson - ICA Associates Inc
>> ICA - 416-691-2316 - - - Cell   647-229-6910
>> http://ica-associates.ca
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Dialogue mailing  list
>> Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
>> http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_wedgeblade.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Dialogue mailing list
> Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
> http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_wedgeblade.net

< >  < >  < >  < >  < >
Wayne Nelson - ICA Associates Inc
ICA - 416-691-2316 - - - Cell  647-229-6910
http://ica-associates.ca

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/dialogue_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091007/994c0e29/attachment-0001.html>