[Dialogue] ToP Methods
Lawrence Philbrook
larry at icatw.com
Wed Oct 7 14:07:42 CDT 2009
We spent a long time talking about this about 20 years ago trying to
determine what language would convey the spirit and energy without
having to spend all of our time trying to give our background and
religious context.
About 10 years ago working with Scott Peck's foundation for Community
Encouragement on dialogue I experienced a transformation of
understanding on how I could talk about _experiential intent_ based on
the experience of a facilitator in community building or profound
dialogue. The experience the "I/ You / We" being at each moment and the
possibility of respecting the similarity and/or divergence as the
existential and experiential reality of this group at this moment.
With respect, Larry
Wayne Nelson wrote:
> As far as I know, they are supposed to mean the same thing. What you
> say points quite directly to a source of what I call contextual drift.
>
> \\/
>
>
> "Carl Larsen" wrote:
>
> Tell me the difference between experiential and existential. To
> me, Existential means Being. IE, I am. Experiential means how I,
> the being, experiences the other.
> Carl Larsen
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Wayne Nelson <mailto:wnelson at ica-associates.ca>
>
> *To:* Colleague Dialogue <mailto:dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 07, 2009 8:09 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] ToP Methods
>
>
> Without question, there is a life address -- in individuals
> and in whole groups - when ToP methods are used well. It's
> transparent, as I believe it should be. People's individual
> lives and organizational cultures do change. People and
> organizations make substantial changes in the way they
> operate. We've seen it all over the place. We see it happen
> in training event and in facilitated events.
>
> My memory and theory - - -
> As I recall, the substitution of "Experiential" for
> "Existential happened when we began formally teaching ToP
> methods. Existential is not a term in common parlance. We
> know there's a life address inherent in our facilitation
> processes. We want to include it and use it with
> intentionality, because we want to make an impact. My guess
> is that those who designed the first courses thought through
> the terminology very carefully. Experiential is a term that
> can be grasped by those who want to facilitate and do
> training. It's easier to swallow.
>
> I do think a couple of things have happened. I feel we have
> lost some of he edge simply from contextual drift over time.
> The more psychological meaning of experiential is easier for
> many to grasp than the original philosophical intent; so
> there's a tendency in that direction. I've heard people
> substitute "visceral" for this aim. There are also those who
> use that aim to refer to the quality of experience they want
> people to have during the session. That's what I think is
> meant by "watering down."
>
> I also think there are those who want the deeper intents to
> be more obvious. We want people to face reality, grasp their
> possibility and act out of a posture of responsibility etc.
> To me this leads to using the Existential / Experiential
> objective as a kind of "hidden agenda." As if we have
> something to teach when we are facilitating. As if there is
> some subtle content "message" we want them to get. As if a
> facilitated event should be an RS1. Obviously, that's an
> exaggeration, but I've seen some hints of it. It makes people
> scratch their heads about us.
>
> My question has to do with what we really mean and intend with
> these parts of our design process. I believe we need both of
> these dimension in our methodology. I know I struggle to
> communicate the real intent behind them in ways that real
> people can understand, integrate and use.
>
> We do make money doing this. We've always dreamed about the
> ability to earn a decent living doing what we do best. It has
> to do with being sustainable in the fullest sense of the
> term. Superficial use of our methods will damage our
> reputation, dampen our impact and lose us money.
>
> \\/
>
> "Richard Alton" wrote:
>
>
>
> Great QUESTION, Jim! Are we changing lives or just making
> a 'fast buck' in the market? I struggle with the question
> of evangelism, but like the WORD.
> Dick
>
> Richard H.T. Alton International Consultants and
> Associates 'building global bridges' 166 N. Humphrey Ave,
> Apt, 1N Oak Park, IL 60302 T:1.773.344.7172
> richard.alton at gmail.com Don't let the fear of striking
> out hold you back Babe Ruth
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 05:26:50 -0700
> From: jfwiegel at yahoo.com
> To: dialogue at wedgeblade.net; oe at wedgeblade.net
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ToP Methods
>
> So, here is my question: Looking at facilitation as we
> developed it and compared to address your life pedagogy
> like in RS-1 and then compared to the impact which Joe
> could generate on individuals and groups -- are these all
> the same thing, or quite different things?
>
> If more or less the same, how would you describe this at
> its best? Has this style of evangelism evolved and
> become refined or has it gotten watered down?
>
> If different, how, and which are needed these days?
>
> Jim
>
> Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a pun. G. K.
> Chesterton
>
>
> Jim Wiegel
> 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
> +1 623-936-8671 +1 623-363-3277
> jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
> <http://www.partnersinparticipation.com>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* W. J. <synergi at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>;
> dialogue at wedgeblade.net
> *Sent:* Tue, October 6, 2009 7:17:03 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] ToP Methods
>
> You can see why there were different Gospels in the
> Bible, and that was long before Wiegel was summoned to the
> Holy Land to preach his revised standard version of the
> Facilitator's Gospel. "Experiential Aim"? Where did that
> come from? Isn't that the new Liberalism creeping in to
> dilute the authentic EI Orthodoxy? Everybody who knew JWM
> knows it is "Existential Aim" -- and you better believe it
> really addressed your existence just to be around the Old
> Man.
> And the "O" in ORID -- wasn't that originally just
> "Impressionistic"? And wasn't "R" originally
> "Subjective"? And wasn't "D" originally "Theological"? So
> ORID = ISIT?
> Ah, the problems of generational transmission of the
> authentic received canonical tradition! (Big Clue: I'm
> laughing!)
>
> Marshall
>
> >From where I sit, ORID reminds me of King Henry's death
> sentence pronounced on Thomas Becket: "Will no One RID me
> of this meddlesome priest?" Or something like that.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* James Wiegel <jfwiegel at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>;
> Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 6, 2009 3:33:45 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] ToP Methods
>
> As I recall, these were an old, old idea. When we were
> putting together the ToP curriculum with those horizontal
> bubble tables we added in Rational Objective and
> Experiential objective to the manuals -- after 3 or 4
> years someone expressed confusion between Rational
> "Objective" and Experiential "Objective" and "Objective"
> as in ORID, so when the manual was redone we changed to
> Rational Aim and Experiential Aim.
>
> In actuality, though, there is a very rich and wise
> diversity in the ways by which ToP facilitators actually
> focus and prepare themselves. It would be a great
> contribution to our craft to hear from many people how
> they do this . .
>
> Jim
>
> Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a pun. G. K.
> Chesterton
>
>
> Jim Wiegel
> 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
> +1 623-936-8671 +1 623-363-3277
> jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
> <http://www.partnersinparticipation.com>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Wayne Nelson <wnelson at ica-associates.ca>
> *To:* Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>; Order
> Ecumenical <oe at wedgeblade.net>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 6, 2009 3:23:46 PM
> *Subject:* [Oe List ...] ToP Methods
>
> Here's a memory question -- maybe something you heard.
>
> When, how and why did we introduce the ideas of using
> Rational and Existential aims when we prepare for a
> facilitated event or a training event?
>
> Does anyone know that history? I'm curious.
>
>
> \\/
> < > < > < > < > < >
> Wayne Nelson - ICA Associates Inc
> ICA - 416-691-2316 - - - Cell -- 647-229-6910
> http://ica-associates.ca
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> < > < > < > < > < >
> Wayne Nelson - ICA Associates Inc
> ICA - 416-691-2316 - - - Cell -- 647-229-6910
> http://ica-associates.ca
>
>
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>
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>
> < > < > < > < > < >
> Wayne Nelson - ICA Associates Inc
> ICA - 416-691-2316 - - - Cell -- 647-229-6910
> http://ica-associates.ca
>
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