[Dialogue] Our Methods

Wed Oct 7 15:04:41 CDT 2009

By "existential" we were definitely pointing to "encounter, event, moment of
decision," which came from the earlier 20th cy. existentialist understanding
that grew out of and influenced western religious and philosophical thought
-- that really began with Kierkegaard in the 19th cy.

Yes, both "existential" and "experiential" do point to being and
becoming.They are closely kin, but "experiential" and "existential" are not
the same thing in that 20 cy. context that birthed CFLC in Texas and
EI:Chicago. One could say "experiential" is a dynamic of  an "existential"
encounter or transformative event.

Seems to me the primary question we're all asking: Are participants given
the opportunity in events we facilitate to leave with a deeper or more
profound experience and understanding of life realilty and their part in it?
This can modulate between an intense RS-I weekend or a less-intense Town
Meeting. 

John C.

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Wayne Nelson
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 2:46 PM
To: Colleague Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ToP Methods

As far as I know, they are supposed to mean the same thing. What you say
points quite directly to a source of what I call contextual drift.

\\/

"Carl Larsen"  wrote:

Tell me the difference between experiential and existential.  To me,
Existential means Being. IE, I am.  Experiential means how I, the being,
experiences the other. 
Carl Larsen

----- Original Message ----- 

From:  Wayne Nelson  <mailto:wnelson at ica-associates.ca>
<mailto:wnelson at ica-associates.ca>  

To: Colleague Dialogue  <mailto:dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
<mailto:dialogue at wedgeblade.net>  

Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 8:09  AM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ToP Methods

Without  question, there is a life address - in individuals and in whole
groups - when  ToP methods are used well. It's transparent, as I believe it
should be.  People's individual  lives and organizational cultures do
change. People  and organizations make substantial changes in the way they
operate.   We've seen it all over the place. We see it happen in training
event and  in facilitated events. 

My memory and theory - - -
As I recall, the  substitution of "Experiential" for "Existential happened
when we began  formally teaching ToP methods.  Existential is not a term in
common  parlance. We know there's a life address inherent in our
facilitation  processes.  We want to include it and use it with
intentionality, because  we want to make an impact. My guess is that those
who designed the first  courses thought through the terminology very
carefully. Experiential is a term  that can be grasped by those who want to
facilitate and do training. It's  easier to swallow. 

I do think a couple of things have happened. I feel  we have lost some of he
edge simply from contextual drift over time. The more  psychological meaning
of experiential is easier for many to grasp than the  original philosophical
intent; so there's a tendency in that direction. I've  heard people
substitute "visceral" for this aim. There are also those who use  that aim
to refer to the quality of experience they want people to have during  the
session. That's what I think is meant by "watering down."    

I also think there are those who want the deeper intents  to be more
obvious. We want people to face reality, grasp their possibility  and act
out of a posture of responsibility etc.   To me this leads  to using the
Existential / Experiential objective as a kind of "hidden  agenda." As if we
have something to teach when we are facilitating. As if  there is some
subtle content "message" we want them to get. As if a  facilitated event
should be an RS1. Obviously, that's an exaggeration, but  I've seen some
hints of it. It makes people scratch their heads about us.  

My question has to do with what we really mean and intend with these  parts
of our design process. I believe we need both of these dimension in our
methodology. I know I struggle to communicate the real intent behind them in
ways that real people can understand, integrate and use.

We do make  money doing this. We've always dreamed about the ability to earn
a decent  living doing what we do best. It has to do with being sustainable
in the  fullest sense of the term.  Superficial use of our methods will
damage  our reputation, dampen our impact and lose us money.   

\\/

"Richard Alton"  wrote:

Great QUESTION,  Jim! Are we changing lives or just making a 'fast buck' in
the market? I  struggle with the question of evangelism, but like the  WORD.
Dick

Richard H.T. Alton International Consultants and  Associates 'building
global bridges' 166 N. Humphrey Ave, Apt, 1N Oak Park,  IL 60302
T:1.773.344.7172 richard.alton at gmail.com Don't let the fear of  striking out
hold you back  Babe Ruth

  _____  

Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 05:26:50 -0700
From: jfwiegel at yahoo.com
To:  dialogue at wedgeblade.net; oe at wedgeblade.net
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ToP  Methods

So, here is my question:  Looking at facilitation as we  developed it and
compared to address your life pedagogy like in RS-1 and  then compared to
the impact which Joe could generate on individuals and  groups -- are these
all the same thing, or quite different things?

If  more or less the same, how would you describe this at its best?  Has
this style of evangelism evolved and become refined or has it gotten watered
down?

If different, how, and which are needed these  days?

Jim

Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a  pun.  G. K. Chesterton

Jim Wiegel
401 North Beverly Way,  Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
+1  623-936-8671   +1   623-363-3277
   jfwiegel at yahoo.com    www.partnersinparticipation.com
<http://www.partnersinparticipation.com>
<http://www.partnersinparticipation.com>  

  _____  

From: W. J. <synergi at yahoo.com>
To: Order Ecumenical  Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>; dialogue at wedgeblade.net
Sent:  Tue, October 6, 2009 7:17:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ToP  Methods

You can see why there were different  Gospels in the Bible, and that was
long before Wiegel was summoned to the  Holy Land to preach his revised
standard version of the Facilitator's  Gospel. "Experiential Aim"? Where did
that come from? Isn't that the new  Liberalism creeping in to dilute the
authentic EI Orthodoxy? Everybody who  knew JWM knows it is "Existential
Aim" -- and you better believe it really  addressed your existence just to
be around the Old Man.
And the "O" in  ORID -- wasn't that originally just "Impressionistic"? And
wasn't "R"  originally "Subjective"? And wasn't "D" originally
"Theological"? So ORID =  ISIT?
Ah, the problems of generational transmission of the authentic  received
canonical tradition! (Big Clue: I'm  laughing!)

Marshall

>From where I sit, ORID reminds  me of King Henry's death sentence
pronounced on Thomas Becket: "Will no One  RID me of this meddlesome
priest?" Or something like  that.

  _____  

From: James Wiegel <jfwiegel at yahoo.com>
To: Order  Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>; Colleague Dialogue
<dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2009  3:33:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] ToP Methods

As I recall, these were an old, old idea.  When we were  putting together
the ToP curriculum with those horizontal bubble tables we  added in Rational
Objective and Experiential objective to the manuals --  after 3 or 4 years
someone expressed confusion between Rational "Objective"  and Experiential
"Objective" and "Objective" as in ORID, so when the manual  was redone we
changed to Rational Aim and Experiential Aim.

In  actuality, though, there is a very rich and wise diversity in the ways
by  which ToP facilitators actually focus and prepare themselves.  It would
be a great contribution to our craft to hear from many people how they do
this . . 

Jim

Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of  a pun.  G. K. Chesterton

Jim Wiegel
401 North Beverly  Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
+1  623-936-8671   +1   623-363-3277
   jfwiegel at yahoo.com    www.partnersinparticipation.com
<http://www.partnersinparticipation.com>
<http://www.partnersinparticipation.com>  

  _____  

From: Wayne Nelson <wnelson at ica-associates.ca>
To:  Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>; Order Ecumenical
<oe at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 3:23:46  PM
Subject: [Oe List ...] ToP Methods

Here's a memory question - maybe something you  heard.

When, how and why did we introduce the ideas of using Rational  and
Existential aims when we prepare for a facilitated event or a training
event?

Does anyone know that history? I'm  curious.

\\/
< >  < >   < >  < >  < > 
Wayne Nelson -  ICA Associates Inc
ICA - 416-691-2316 - - - Cell - 647-229-6910
http://ica-associates.ca

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http://ica-associates.ca

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