[Dialogue] Alinsky, the disestablishment

Fri Jan 14 14:31:21 CST 2011

You missed this phrase in an earlier post from Randy (I think):

If you Google "Industrial Areas Foundation" (IAF) and go to the Wikipedia
page you will find reference to Ernesto Cortes, Jr. as the Alinski protege
who took Alinsky's approach from the 1940s and in San Antonio, TX made it a
congregation-based process.

Sunny

Sunny Walker

SunWalker Enterprises

Aurora, Colorado

303-671-0704

Cell: 303-587-3017

sunwalker at comcast.net 

No matter how far you've gone down the wrong road, turn back. - Turkish
Proverb

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of
facilitationfla at aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 1:17 PM
To: dialogue at wedgeblade.net
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Alinsky, the disestablishment

The IAF?  The Internationall Assoc. of Facilitators? 

-----Original Message-----
From: R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com>
To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 1:19 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Alinsky, the disestablishment

Many will remember the movie Little Big Man which dramatized, as we saw it,
the transestablishment stance.  The main character, Jack Crabb, played by
Dustin Hoffman, was a white man, raised by Indians, who crossed back and
forth across the river from one culture to the other.  What we articulated
from that is that those in the transestablishment have no place of their own
to stand but rather stand with one foot in each the establishment and
disestablishment.  So the establishment thinks they're disestablishment, and
the disestablishment thinks they are establishment.  Which are they?
Neither and both.  Thus, George's earlier statement, that the
transestablishment does not disparage either of them and in fact embraces
and lives in the tension between them.  We always caught flak from people
like Alinsky and the IAF, and at the same time from the institutional church
and academia because both camps identified us as being with the other.

Randy

--- On Fri, 1/14/11, elliestock at aol.com <elliestock at aol.com> wrote:

From: elliestock at aol.com <elliestock at aol.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Alinsky, the disestablishment
To: dialogue at wedgeblade.net
Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 11:52 AM

Very interesting conversation re Alinsky/ICA approaches and methods--much
appreciated.  In much of our local church/community context we take the
transestablishment approach.  Relative to some community issues we work with
the Gamaliel Foundation (Chicago) (and local affiliates)--an offshoot of
Alinsky and parallel group to IAF.  We also use a community organizing
approach with our presbytery's Peru partnership as it relates to dealing
with lead contamination issues by the same US-owned/based company in both
Missouri and Peru.

Ellie Stock

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Fisher <hkf232 at gmail.com>
To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
Cc: Springboard Dialogue <springboard at wedgeblade.net>; m.george.walters
<m.george.walters at gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 8:10 am
Subject: [Dialogue] Alinsky, the disestablishment - Rick Loudermilk?

Friends,

This my first posting in many years.

Beret gave me the link so that I could ask you all if anyone knew how to
connect with Rick Loudermilk. 

So it was fun to see the Alinsky Dialogue pop up.

This is my little bit to contribute on this subject.  And I suppose, to some
extent, within the context of OE, EI and ICA, I was the disestablishment.

While at university in the mid sixties, I was involved with the Student
Christian Movement, New Left and the Anti-War Movement, mostly in Canada.
In 1964 I was a fund-raiser for SNCC - the Student Non-Violent Coordinating
Committee - tackling voter registration in  Mississippi.  Some of my friends
went there.

As an activist, in the fall of '67(?) I was attending a conference in
Moncton, New Brunswick (of all places) and was a workshop leader.  Saul was
the main speaker and later I was on a panel with him.  I had already had RS1
and asked Saul if he knew of EI - Chicago.  He was vague.

When moving to Chicago in May of '68, I was surprised at the approach to
social change.  It was cultural first - not overtly dealing with 'the class
struggle'.  Indeed, I found little interest about Saul Alinsky or the
disestablishment approach.  The best light on this is illuminated by
George's comment below.  EI worked for change through 'symbol is the key' -
with a change in community 'possibility' and identity - significant economic
and political change could follow.  In my limited experience with the Human
Development Projects, the need for ICA legitimacy meant that a 'realistic'
relationship with the 'establishment' (e.g. the secret service in Korea)
meant that we were almost exclusively working under the umbrella of the
establishment, not over against it.  The change we were espousing was from
'within' - to create a virus of possibility within the Petri dish of the
established way of living.  Bill says it well.

In my experience, the 'disestablishment' mostly regarded us with suspicion
and distain because we were neither rhetorically nor politically active in
directly challenging the 'establishment'.  This was very problematic in our
work in the UK.

I remember calling Fifth City from the Madison House in the early 70s saying
that I had just met with Fannie Lou Hamer and that she would be willing to
come to Fifth City for a visit and to speak.  Those in charge at that time
did not know who she was, nor did they seem to know much about voter
registration in Mississippi.

On another occasion a mixed racial South African couple, engaged in
anti-aparthied activities explored seeking refuge at 3444 Congress Parkway.
They were not welcome.  Practically speaking, their mission was different
than ours.

Rules for Radicals is still happily on my bookshelf.  And, since the 60s, I
have embraced the 'trans-establishment' posture - hopefully, along with the
Communion of Saints.

Grace and peace,

Ken Fisher

hkf232 at gmail.com
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hkf232@gmail.com> 

613.279.1902

1070 Elizabeth Street

Box 75

Sharbot Lake ON

K0H 2P0

On 2011-01-13, at 11:24 AM, Janet Sanders wrote:

In the early 90's some of the movement folks in Omaha, Nebraska joined with
the parish movement component of Alinsky's work.  Rev Don and Marlene
Johnson were quite involved at the time.  When I visited my brother in the
Omaha area I got updates from the Johnson's.  It was influential for several
years.  Jan

Janet A. Sanders

  _____  

From: m.george.walters at verizon.net
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=m.george.walters@verizon.net> 
To: dialogue at wedgeblade.net
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dialogue@wedgeblade.net> ;
springboard at wedgeblade.net
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=springboard@wedgeblade.net> 
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 08:31:02 -0500
Subject: Re: [Springboard] [Dialogue] Alinsky & Freire and ICA's approach

Disestablishment posture and tactics on the part of many, not just Alinsky,
was seminal input to our thinking that derived the Trans-establishment
posture. Establishment, Disestablishment and Trans-establishment postures
and tactics are always options in any given ethical context. No right/wrong
or good/bad can be assigned to any of the three. I believe in an ethical
context, when analyzing a situation, they are points of identity. When
determining action, they are elements of choice.

George

M. George Walters

4240 Sandy Shores Dr

Lutz, FL 33558

USA

Tel: +1 (813) 948-7267

Fax: +1 (813) 333-1787

Mob: +1 (813) 505-9041

URL: www.ResurgencePublishing.com <http://www.resurgencepublishing.com/> 

Professional Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mgwalters

From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dialogue-bounces@wedgeblade.ne
t>  [mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dialogue-bounces@wedgeblade.ne
t&> ] On Behalf Of Martin Gilbraith (ICA:UK)
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 08:22
To: Colleague Dialogue; Springboard Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Springboard] Alinsky & Freire and ICA's approach

Hi all, thanks for all your responses so far, its all very intersting to me,
Martin

On 12/01/2011 22:35, Len Hockley wrote:

There is also a great story (true or not) about Alinsky and King meeting in
O'Hare airport just before the housing march.  

It seems King was carrying on about how his movement was so "grassroots and
unstructured" and Alinsky comes back and says "The only movement without
structure is cow shit."

Len

On 1/12/2011 11:13 AM, Bill Schlesinger wrote:

The primary difference between our approach and Alinsky's (who did not
lecture in any early Academy I remember in the 60's) was methodological, not
an establishment/disestablishment orientation.  Alinsky's approach depended
on a responsive establishment that would not simply shoot organizers.  It
relied - as did Ghandi's and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s approaches - on
the moral values perceived by the establishment system.  'Rub raw the sores
of discontent' was intended to energize marginalized communities to a level
of dissatisfaction with the 'status quo' that would then provide the
emotional strength to make specific demands of the ruling elite, and to
expose contradictions of normative value within the ruling elite in order to
create open dissension and a change of practice in that elite.  That was a
basic strategy of the Civil Rights movement.

Our approach - 'locality development' in social service literature - was
more focused on organizing available resources within the marginalized
community ('Every local community can feed itself') and creating a
partnership with identified elements in the wider society.  The intent was
to develop an approach that did not rely on a specific response from the
governing elite ('OK, OK, we'll put a stop sign on the corner').

Bill Schlesinger

Project Vida

3607 Rivera Avenue

El Paso, TX 79905

(915) 533-7057 x 207

(915) 533-7158 FAX

 <http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pvida@whc.net> pvida at whc.net

www.projectvidaelpaso.org <http://www.projectvidaelpaso.org/> 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dialogue-bounces@wedgeblade.ne
t>  [mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dialogue-bounces@wedgeblade.ne
t> ] On Behalf Of Len Hockley
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 11:43 AM
To: Colleague Dialogue
Cc: Springboard Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] [Springboard] Alinsky & Freire and ICA's approach

For what it is worth, it has been noted that Alinski was a lecturer a one of
the early Academys.  Also, he did early work in Detroit where we had his
people come and talk with us.  As I remember it he was a bit too
disestablishment for the likes of us.

I looked up the IAF in Portland (OR) within the last 15yrs were they were
still active in parishes.
Len

On 1/11/2011 8:28 AM, R Williams wrote:

Martin,

There are those who will be able to address your questions much more
directly than I, but here's one strand you might pursue.  If you Google
"Industrial Areas Foundation" (IAF) and go to the Wikipedia page you will
find reference to Ernesto Cortes, Jr. as the Alinski protege who took
Alinsky's approach from the 1940s and in San Antonio, TX made it a
congregation-based process.

Ernesto (Ernie) Cortes went to RS-1 in the late 60s or early 70s and at one
time was a part of the San Antonio cadre.  When I was in the Houston house I
remember him from various meetings in San Antonio.  If you could find a way
to get in touch with him you might get some answers to your question as far
as Alinsky is concerned.  I expect what he may be able to share with you
ways in which EI/RS-1, etc. influenced his work in deciding to be
congregation-based as well as that of IAF in general.

As for Freire, his book Education for Critical Consciousness must have had
an influence in our development of imaginal education, not just the course
but the process used in our whole educational approach, although we referred
more to Kenneth Boulding and The Image.  His later book, Pedagogy of the
Oppressed, although I believe not published at the time, is consistent with,
but in some ways clearer than, his earlier book.

Randy

--- On Tue, 1/11/11, Martin Gilbraith (ICA:UK)
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=martin@ica-uk.org.uk>
<martin at ica-uk.org.uk> wrote:

From: Martin Gilbraith (ICA:UK)
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=martin@ica-uk.org.uk>
<martin at ica-uk.org.uk>
Subject: [Springboard] Alinsky & Freire and ICA's approach
To: Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Dialogue@wedgeblade.net> ,
"Springboard Dialogue"
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=springboard@wedgeblade.net>
<springboard at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Tuesday, January 11, 2011, 9:46 AM

Hi everyone, I am hoping that colleagues with longer memories might be able
to help me with some history please...

The 'big idea' of the UK's new coalition government is Big Society -
variously, applauded as empowering the people, and/or derided as a cynical
cover for devastating public spending cuts - see
http://www.ncvo-vol.org.uk/policy-campaigns-research/big-society/big-society

A major initiative within this agenda is a forthcoming Government-funded
programme to train and support a cadre of 5,000 Community Organisers,
explicitly based on the principles of Saul Alinsky and Paulo Friere - see
http://www.urbanforum.org.uk/briefings/community-organisers-briefing

I beleive that Friere was an influence on the early development of EI/ICA's
methods and approach, and I understand that Alinsky was developing Community
Organising in Chicago around the same time as EI/ICA was in Fifth City.  

What I would really like to learn more about is to what extent and how did
Friere and/or Alinsky influence the develpment of EI/ICA and our methods and
approach; and to what extent and how might our methods and approach have
influenced the development of Community Organising?

My partner Derek put this same question, more or less, to George Packard
several years ago when he was here in the UK just after Derek had taken a
course in Faith-based Community Organising through his local Unitarian
church - but I don't much remember what he said, and I'd love to have any
more specific recollections and (better still) any documents that might be
relevant.

I am hoping this might inform how we seek to position ICA:UK in relation to
this emerging new agenda, and that I might draft an article (for ICA:UK
Network News if not also elsewhere) based on what I receive.

many thanks for any recollections or insights you can offer, best wishes,
Martin

--

Martin Gilbraith <martin at ica-uk.org.uk
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=martin@ica-uk.org.uk> >

connect with me at http://uk.linkedin.com/in/martingilbraith

Chief Executive, ICA:UK
registered charity #1090745 & company limited by guarantee #3970365
registered in England & Wales, at 41 Old Birley Street, Manchester M15 5RF
tel/fax: 0845 450 0305 or 0161 232 8444 - www.ica-uk.org.uk
<http://www.ica-uk.org.uk/> 

The Institute of Cultural Affairs (ICA) - a global network of autonomous
not-for-profit organisations in 30 countries
"concerned with  the  human  factor  in  world development"

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Martin Gilbraith <martin at ica-uk.org.uk
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=martin@ica-uk.org.uk> >

connect with me at http://uk.linkedin.com/in/martingilbraith

Chief Executive, ICA:UK
registered charity #1090745 & company limited by guarantee #3970365
registered in England & Wales, at 41 Old Birley Street, Manchester M15 5RF
tel/fax: 0845 450 0305 or 0161 232 8444 - www.ica-uk.org.uk
<http://www.ica-uk.org.uk/> 

The Institute of Cultural Affairs (ICA) - a global network of autonomous
not-for-profit organisations in 30 countries
"concerned with  the  human  factor  in  world development"

IAF Certified Professional Facilitator & Chair
The International Association of Facilitators - www.iaf-world.org
<http://www.iaf-world.org/> 

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