[Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaks vs.BudgetCuts
James Wiegel
jfwiegel at yahoo.com
Wed Mar 9 12:02:19 CST 2011
Wonderful conversation . . . What would it take to go deeply enough into the budget questions and their implications and hidden agendas to find a way forward that isn't snarky?
Jim Wiegel
People need trees. They need to see leaves from their windows, to sit in green spaces, and to play in the shade. Trees draw people out from behind walls of brick and glass, and in coming together, neighbors forge relationships, nurture children, and build a sense of community. Tina Prow
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--- On Wed, 3/9/11, Geri Tolman <gdtolman at comcast.net> wrote:
From: Geri Tolman <gdtolman at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaks vs.BudgetCuts
To: "'Colleague Dialogue'" <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Wednesday, March 9, 2011, 10:14 AM
George,
it would only be snarky if you were claiming that fraud in the welfare
system doesn't exist...Which you are not!
I don't
know how widespread it is, either - I only personally know of 3 cases - and
they make my blood boil.
My
bottom line is this: let's not fall into the trap of thinking
that all welfare
recipients are "virtuous innocents", and all of the wealthy are "villianous
thieves". Overly-simplified comparisons (like that put forth by
americanprogress.org) do little to move the debate forward to find much-needed
solutions - I think they widen the divide and further polarize our
society.
None of us would deny that
our society is in deep trouble, and that those "at risk" need better structures
of support.
The "categories" in the list which
sparked this discussion carried (what I felt were) "emotionally charged"
descriptions which made me suspicious. The one I highlighted was
the one that assumed you could estimate the cost of estate planning; and assumed
that estate planning was only done by the wealthy to avoid paying taxes.
Estate planning can be done by "middle class folks", without paying anyone any
fees! And I'll bet fees vary widely. So how can you come
up with a number? Another category I wondered about was the one referring
to deducting mortgage interest on second homes, which I think was taken out of
the tax laws in 1987 (?? Randy, is this true??). My nephew is a
contractor - cheers to anybody who wants to hire him to build however many extra
homes they want....he needs the work, and those folks can pay the property
taxes to those communities.
The
welfare cheaters show their faces as little as possible. They are expert
in filing false paperwork, working "under the table", make most of their
money illegally, and only earn enough money legally to appear
"legitimate". The 3 cases I refer to are a cousin, and siblings of 2
friends - all of whom defraud the welfare system. My skepticism is based
in watching my cousin operate on my aunt's bank accounts as she was
dying of lung cancer and he moved into her house "to help her"....done
"legally" (she signed the paperwork). My mother asked me to get
involved, so I did some "research". Not saying how I found the data, but
he needed good records to keep all of his lies straight. He moves
between at least 3 states in New England; has received welfare from all
three. He's still shopping with food stamps in Massachusetts, and his 8
year old shows off her $200 Nintendo game at the local grocery
store. The system is so broken and over-burdened that it can't
effectively deal with reports of fraud, let alone provide adequate care for
those who really need it....and from all indicators, it's about to get a lot
worse.
Geri
From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of R
Williams
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 9:13 AM
To:
Colleague Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national
priorities - Tax Breaks vs.BudgetCuts
I would have to look up the stats, but the numbers I've seen are
that by far the majority of people in the country who fall below the
federal government's poverty guideline (which is way too low
at just over $20k for a family of 4) are the very young, the very
old, the chronically ill and the working poor (full-time jobs but still
below the poverty line.)
Randy
--- On Tue, 3/8/11, George Holcombe
<geowanda at earthlink.net> wrote:
From:
George Holcombe <geowanda at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:
[Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaks vs.
BudgetCuts
To: "Colleague Dialogue"
<dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Tuesday, March 8, 2011, 9:21
PM
Not to be snarky, Geri, but I've worked
with the poor and homeless in several places most of my life, and I've
yet to see the cheating you report. Mostly because the laws are
such that more are excluded than helped. If you go through the
steps to get benefits, they take up a good deal of time and effort.
The welfare "queens and kings" are hard to find, even harder to
document. I have yet to see an unbiased study that demonstrates
large amounts of cheating. 40% of our children are in poverty today
and we are hemorrhaging homeless folks. The average age of
homeless people in Texas is 11. The wealthiest among us have a far
better chance of avoiding taxes and cashing in on the public trough at
astronomical amounts. The middle class is crashing. The largest
transfer of wealth to the top 1% of the population is unknown in prior
history and is escalating.
The difficulty in our present situation is that at a time we need
a better educated, more mobile young people, education is a
non-priority, and increasingly out of reach of the middle class, let
alone the poor. It is difficult to collect great statistics for
more than a few reasons, but I imagine the situation is much more dire
than Janice's chart suggests.
I agree this is not a matter of left or right, it's a matter of
looking squarely at the situation as it is and looking for workable
solutions. Due to the way we elect people to public office, I
don't see any from that corner.
I'll be glad to discuss this off line if need be. The Order
moved to work with the poorest of the poor to learn and practice
transformational methods from the ground up; I imagine that is the
place to look for the new today. Maybe it's coming from the
Middle East.
George Holcombe
14900 Yellowleaf
Tr.
Austin, TX 78728
Mobile 512/252-2756
geowanda at earthlink.net
“...we have the choice: we
can gratefully cultivate the relationships that make us part
of a vast network, or we can take them for granted and allow
them to wither and die.” Brother David Steindl-Rast,
Deeper than
Words
On Mar 8, 2011, at 5:20 PM, Geri Tolman wrote:
Am I the only one
who is skeptical about these numbers and
categories?
I haven't done
the reading....do they explain how one calculates the "Cost of “estate
planning” techniques used by wealthy to avoid
taxes"?
My healthy dose of skepticism
is based on personal knowledge of too many
people who cheat the welfare system to get food stamps and low
income housing benefits. Not saying there aren't people who
legitimately need these services, just that there is way too much
fraud and abuse.
Lists like these, whether from
the left or the right, suggest that there are easy solutions to very
complex problems, and raise the emotional hackles which tend to get
in the way of generating clear-thinking
solutions.
Respectfully,
Geri
Tolman
From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Janice
Ulangca
Sent: Tuesday,
March 08, 2011 2:02 PM
To: Colleague
Dialogue
Subject: [Dialogue]
Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaks vs.
BudgetCuts
Information on what is up for cutting, and
what's not, during budget discussions in the U.S. Congress going
on this week and next. Info is pasted into this
message. In the attachment, it's neatly arranged
in columns - hope you can open it. A link to sources for
these figures is below.
Janice Ulangca
Programs at risk
Tax breaks for the
wealthy
$11.2 billion Early childhood
programs $11.5 billion Annual cost of estate tax cuts for
millionaires
$8.9 billion Low
income housing programs $8.9
billion Mortgage interest deduction for vacation homes (10
years)
$7.6 billion Supplemental nutrition for poor families (WIC) $6.7
billion Cost
of “estate planning” techniques used by wealthy to avoid
taxes
$4.6 billion Teacher training and afterschool
programs $5.2
billion Cost
of removing limit on itemized deductions for high
income
taxpayers (in 2011)
$4.1 billion Job
training for unemployed and new workers $4.1
billion Cost
of tax breaks for offshore operations of U.S. financial
companies
$2.5 billion Low income energy assistance (LIHEAP) grants for
poor $2.5
billion Tax breaks for oil companies (write-offs
for drilling
and oil well costs in 2012)
$2.5 billion Community health centers $4.9
billion Cost of extending
alcohol fuel tax breaks
$2.0 billion Homeless assistance grants $2.3
billion Tax loopholes for managers of hedge funds and private
equity funds
(in
2012)
$420 million Legal services for the poor $312
million Company write offs of punitive damages (10
years)
$317 million Title X family planning $303
million Special tax breaks for timber industry
$44 billion All programs at
risk combined
$42 billion One year cost of
extending Bush tax cuts for top brackets (2012)
See this link for more information and sources for these
amounts. Most figures are from various government
sources.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/02/tax_breaks_infographic.html
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