[Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaks vs.BudgetCuts

Wed Mar 9 12:59:35 CST 2011

While the behavior that Geri complains about does happen it is for from
normative. What has become normative in the past 3 o4 decades is how the
very rich and the corporations now get every break that they ask for while
the rest of us do what we can with whatever is left over.

David Walters

>George, it would only be snarky if you were claiming that fraud in the
> welfare system doesn't exist...Which you are not!
> I don't know how widespread it is, either - I only personally know of 3
> cases - and they make my blood boil.
>
> My bottom line is this:  let's not fall into the trap of thinking that all
> welfare recipients are "virtuous innocents", and all of the wealthy are
> "villianous thieves".  Overly-simplified comparisons (like that put forth
> by
> americanprogress.org) do little to move the debate forward to find
> much-needed solutions - I think they widen the divide and further polarize
> our society.
>
> None of us would deny that our society is in deep trouble, and that those
> "at risk" need better structures of support.
> The "categories" in the list which sparked this discussion carried (what I
> felt were) "emotionally charged" descriptions which made me suspicious.
> The
> one I highlighted was the one that assumed you could estimate the cost of
> estate planning; and assumed that estate planning was only done by the
> wealthy to avoid paying taxes.  Estate planning can be done by "middle
> class
> folks", without paying anyone any fees!  And I'll bet fees vary widely.
> So
> how can you come up with a number?  Another category I wondered about was
> the one referring to deducting mortgage interest on second homes, which I
> think was taken out of the tax laws in 1987 (?? Randy, is this true??).
> My
> nephew is a contractor - cheers to anybody who wants to hire him to build
> however many extra homes they want....he needs the work, and those folks
> can
> pay the property taxes to those communities.
>
> The welfare cheaters show their faces as little as possible.  They are
> expert in filing false paperwork, working "under the table", make most of
> their money illegally, and only earn enough money legally to appear
> "legitimate".  The 3 cases I refer to are a cousin, and siblings of 2
> friends - all of whom defraud the welfare system.  My skepticism is based
> in
> watching my cousin operate on my aunt's bank accounts as she was dying of
> lung cancer and he moved into her house "to help her"....done "legally"
> (she
> signed the paperwork).  My mother asked me to get involved, so I did some
> "research".  Not saying how I found the data, but he needed good records
> to
> keep all of his lies straight.  He moves between at least 3 states in New
> England; has received welfare from all three.  He's still shopping with
> food
> stamps in Massachusetts, and his 8 year old shows off her $200 Nintendo
> game
> at the local grocery store.  The system is so broken and over-burdened
> that
> it can't effectively deal with reports of fraud, let alone provide
> adequate
> care for those who really need it....and from all indicators, it's about
> to
> get a lot worse.
>
> Geri
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of R Williams
> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 9:13 AM
> To: Colleague Dialogue
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaks
> vs.BudgetCuts
>
>
>
> I would have to look up the stats, but the numbers I've seen are that by
> far
> the majority of people in the country who fall below the federal
> government's poverty guideline (which is way too low at just over $20k for
> a
> family of 4) are the very young, the very old, the chronically ill and the
> working poor (full-time jobs but still below the poverty line.)
>
> Randy
>
> --- On Tue, 3/8/11, George Holcombe <geowanda at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> From: George Holcombe <geowanda at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaks vs.
> BudgetCuts
> To: "Colleague Dialogue" <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
> Date: Tuesday, March 8, 2011, 9:21 PM
>
>
> Not to be snarky, Geri, but I've worked with the poor and homeless in
> several places most of my life, and I've yet to see the cheating you
> report.
> Mostly because the laws are such that more are excluded than helped.  If
> you
> go through the steps to get benefits, they take up a good deal of time and
> effort.  The welfare "queens and kings" are hard to find, even harder to
> document.  I have yet to see an unbiased study that demonstrates large
> amounts of cheating. 40% of our children are in poverty today and we are
> hemorrhaging homeless folks.  The average age of homeless people in Texas
> is
> 11. The wealthiest among us have a far better chance of avoiding taxes and
> cashing in on the public trough at astronomical amounts.  The middle class
> is crashing. The largest transfer of wealth to the top 1% of the
> population
> is unknown in prior history and is escalating.
>
> The difficulty in our present situation is that at a time we need a better
> educated, more mobile young people, education is a non-priority, and
> increasingly out of reach of the middle class, let alone the poor.  It is
> difficult to collect great statistics for more than a few reasons, but I
> imagine the situation is much more dire than Janice's chart suggests.
>
> I agree this is not a matter of left or right, it's a matter of looking
> squarely at the situation as it is and looking for workable solutions.
> Due
> to the way we elect people to public office, I don't see any from that
> corner.
>
> I'll be glad to discuss this off line if need be.  The Order moved to work
> with the poorest of the poor to learn and practice transformational
> methods
> from the ground up; I imagine that is the place to look for the new today.
> Maybe it's coming from the Middle East.
>
>
>
>
>
> George Holcombe
> 14900 Yellowleaf Tr.
> Austin, TX 78728
> Mobile 512/252-2756
> geowanda at earthlink.net
> <http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=geowanda@earthlink.net>
>
> ý“...we have the choice: we can gratefully cultivate the relationships
> that
> make us part of a vast network, or we can take them for granted and allow
> them to wither and die.”  Brother David Steindl-Rast, Deeper than Words
>
>
>
> On Mar 8, 2011, at 5:20 PM, Geri Tolman wrote:
>
>
>
> Am I the only one who is skeptical about these numbers and categories?
> I haven't done the reading....do they explain how one calculates the "Cost
> of “estate planning” techniques used by wealthy to avoid taxes"?
>
> My healthy dose of skepticism is based on personal knowledge of too many
> people who cheat the welfare system to get food stamps and low income
> housing benefits.  Not saying there aren't people who legitimately need
> these services, just that there is way too much fraud and abuse.
>
> Lists like these, whether from the left or the right, suggest that there
> are
> easy solutions to very complex problems, and raise the emotional hackles
> which tend to get in the way of generating clear-thinking solutions.
>
> Respectfully,
> Geri Tolman
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
> <http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dialogue-bounces@wedgeblade.ne
> t>  [mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Janice Ulangca
> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 2:02 PM
> To: Colleague Dialogue
> Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaks vs.
> BudgetCuts
>
>
>
> Information on what is up for cutting, and what's not, during budget
> discussions in the U.S. Congress going on this week and next. Info is
> pasted
> into this message.  In the attachment, it's neatly arranged in columns -
> hope you can open it.  A link to sources for these figures is below.
> Janice Ulangca
>
>
> Programs at risk             Tax breaks for the wealthy
>
> $11.2 billion Early childhood programs     $11.5 billion Annual cost of
> estate tax cuts for millionaires
>
> $8.9 billion Low income housing programs   $8.9 billion Mortgage interest
> deduction for vacation homes (10 years)
>
>
>
> $7.6 billion Supplemental nutrition for poor families (WIC)  $6.7 billion
> Cost of “estate planning” techniques used by wealthy to avoid taxes
>
> $4.6 billion Teacher training and afterschool programs      $5.2 billion
> Cost of removing limit on itemized deductions for high income
>
>
> taxpayers (in 2011)
>
> $4.1 billion Job training for unemployed and new workers   $4.1 billion
> Cost
> of tax breaks for offshore operations of U.S. financial companies
>
> $2.5 billion Low income energy assistance (LIHEAP) grants for poor  $2.5
> billion Tax breaks for oil companies (write-offs
>
>
>
> for drilling and oil well costs in 2012)
>
> $2.5 billion Community health centers   $4.9 billion Cost of extending
> alcohol fuel tax breaks
>
> $2.0 billion Homeless assistance grants  $2.3 billion Tax loopholes for
> managers of hedge funds and private equity funds
>
>
>
> (in 2012)
>
> $420 million Legal services for the poor  $312 million Company write offs
> of
> punitive damages (10 years)
>
> $317 million Title X family planning      $303 million Special tax breaks
> for timber industry
>
>
>
> $44 billion All programs at risk combined
>
> $42 billion One year cost of extending Bush tax cuts for top brackets
> (2012)
>
>
>
>
> See this link for more information and sources for these amounts.  Most
> figures are from various government sources.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/02/tax_breaks_infographic.html>
> http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/02/tax_breaks_infographic.html
>
>
>
>
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