[Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaksvs.BudgetCuts

Wed Mar 9 13:03:54 CST 2011

I’d assume ‘cheating’ at all levels by all people – ‘Total Depravity’ – but
would suggest that it’s pretty much of a wash between ‘welfare cheats’ and
‘tax cheats’ and not make this a significant variable between socio-economic
or ethnic groups.  I think that the evaluation of tax breaks vs. spending
needs some more thought regarding economic impact (tax breaks need an
evidenced-base connection to additional spending that creates jobs that I
haven’t seen in the literature; spending at low income levels results in
almost immediate consumer purchasing per the Nintendo story which provided
jobs for at least the retail and trucking industry).  

Moralistic evaluations of any particular group of folk are pretty useless in
economic analysis.

Bill Schlesinger

Project Vida

3607 Rivera Avenue

El Paso, TX 79905

(915) 533-7057 x 207

(915) 533-7158 FAX

 <mailto:pvida at whc.net> pvida at whc.net

www.projectvidaelpaso.org

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of James Wiegel
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 11:02 AM
To: Colleague Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax
Breaksvs.BudgetCuts

Wonderful conversation . . .  What would it take to go deeply enough into
the budget questions and their implications and hidden agendas to find a way
forward that isn't snarky?  

Jim Wiegel

People need trees. They need to see leaves from their windows, to sit in
green spaces, and to play in the shade. Trees draw people out from behind
walls of brick and glass, and in coming together, neighbors forge
relationships, nurture children, and build a sense of community. Tina Prow

401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel
jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com

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--- On Wed, 3/9/11, Geri Tolman <gdtolman at comcast.net> wrote:

From: Geri Tolman <gdtolman at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaks
vs.BudgetCuts
To: "'Colleague Dialogue'" <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Wednesday, March 9, 2011, 10:14 AM

George, it would only be snarky if you were claiming that fraud in the
welfare system doesn't exist...Which you are not!

I don't know how widespread it is, either - I only personally know of 3
cases - and they make my blood boil.

My bottom line is this:  let's not fall into the trap of thinking that all
welfare recipients are "virtuous innocents", and all of the wealthy are
"villianous thieves".  Overly-simplified comparisons (like that put forth by
americanprogress.org) do little to move the debate forward to find
much-needed solutions - I think they widen the divide and further polarize
our society.

None of us would deny that our society is in deep trouble, and that those
"at risk" need better structures of support.

The "categories" in the list which sparked this discussion carried (what I
felt were) "emotionally charged" descriptions which made me suspicious.  The
one I highlighted was the one that assumed you could estimate the cost of
estate planning; and assumed that estate planning was only done by the
wealthy to avoid paying taxes.  Estate planning can be done by "middle class
folks", without paying anyone any fees!  And I'll bet fees vary widely.  So
how can you come up with a number?  Another category I wondered about was
the one referring to deducting mortgage interest on second homes, which I
think was taken out of the tax laws in 1987 (?? Randy, is this true??).  My
nephew is a contractor - cheers to anybody who wants to hire him to build
however many extra homes they want....he needs the work, and those folks can
pay the property taxes to those communities.

The welfare cheaters show their faces as little as possible.  They are
expert in filing false paperwork, working "under the table", make most of
their money illegally, and only earn enough money legally to appear
"legitimate".  The 3 cases I refer to are a cousin, and siblings of 2
friends - all of whom defraud the welfare system.  My skepticism is based in
watching my cousin operate on my aunt's bank accounts as she was dying of
lung cancer and he moved into her house "to help her"....done "legally" (she
signed the paperwork).  My mother asked me to get involved, so I did some
"research".  Not saying how I found the data, but he needed good records to
keep all of his lies straight.  He moves between at least 3 states in New
England; has received welfare from all three.  He's still shopping with food
stamps in Massachusetts, and his 8 year old shows off her $200 Nintendo game
at the local grocery store.  The system is so broken and over-burdened that
it can't effectively deal with reports of fraud, let alone provide adequate
care for those who really need it....and from all indicators, it's about to
get a lot worse.

Geri 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of R Williams
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 9:13 AM
To: Colleague Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaks
vs.BudgetCuts

I would have to look up the stats, but the numbers I've seen are that by far
the majority of people in the country who fall below the federal
government's poverty guideline (which is way too low at just over $20k for a
family of 4) are the very young, the very old, the chronically ill and the
working poor (full-time jobs but still below the poverty line.)

Randy

--- On Tue, 3/8/11, George Holcombe <geowanda at earthlink.net> wrote:

From: George Holcombe <geowanda at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaks vs.
BudgetCuts
To: "Colleague Dialogue" <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Tuesday, March 8, 2011, 9:21 PM

Not to be snarky, Geri, but I've worked with the poor and homeless in
several places most of my life, and I've yet to see the cheating you report.
Mostly because the laws are such that more are excluded than helped.  If you
go through the steps to get benefits, they take up a good deal of time and
effort.  The welfare "queens and kings" are hard to find, even harder to
document.  I have yet to see an unbiased study that demonstrates large
amounts of cheating. 40% of our children are in poverty today and we are
hemorrhaging homeless folks.  The average age of homeless people in Texas is
11. The wealthiest among us have a far better chance of avoiding taxes and
cashing in on the public trough at astronomical amounts.  The middle class
is crashing. The largest transfer of wealth to the top 1% of the population
is unknown in prior history and is escalating. 

The difficulty in our present situation is that at a time we need a better
educated, more mobile young people, education is a non-priority, and
increasingly out of reach of the middle class, let alone the poor.  It is
difficult to collect great statistics for more than a few reasons, but I
imagine the situation is much more dire than Janice's chart suggests.

I agree this is not a matter of left or right, it's a matter of looking
squarely at the situation as it is and looking for workable solutions.  Due
to the way we elect people to public office, I don't see any from that
corner.

I'll be glad to discuss this off line if need be.  The Order moved to work
with the poorest of the poor to learn and practice transformational methods
from the ground up; I imagine that is the place to look for the new today.
Maybe it's coming from the Middle East.

George Holcombe
14900 Yellowleaf Tr.
Austin, TX 78728
Mobile 512/252-2756
geowanda at earthlink.net
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=geowanda@earthlink.net> 

‎“...we have the choice: we can gratefully cultivate the relationships that
make us part of a vast network, or we can take them for granted and allow
them to wither and die.”  Brother David Steindl-Rast, Deeper than Words

On Mar 8, 2011, at 5:20 PM, Geri Tolman wrote:

Am I the only one who is skeptical about these numbers and categories? 

I haven't done the reading....do they explain how one calculates the "Cost
of “estate planning” techniques used by wealthy to avoid taxes"?

My healthy dose of skepticism is based on personal knowledge of too many
people who cheat the welfare system to get food stamps and low income
housing benefits.  Not saying there aren't people who legitimately need
these services, just that there is way too much fraud and abuse. 

Lists like these, whether from the left or the right, suggest that there are
easy solutions to very complex problems, and raise the emotional hackles
which tend to get in the way of generating clear-thinking solutions.

Respectfully,

Geri Tolman

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dialogue-bounces@wedgeblade.ne
t>  [mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Janice Ulangca
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 2:02 PM
To: Colleague Dialogue
Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaks vs.
BudgetCuts

Information on what is up for cutting, and what's not, during budget
discussions in the U.S. Congress going on this week and next. Info is pasted
into this message.  In the attachment, it's neatly arranged in columns -
hope you can open it.  A link to sources for these figures is below.

Janice Ulangca

Programs at risk             Tax breaks for the wealthy

$11.2 billion Early childhood programs     $11.5 billion Annual cost of
estate tax cuts for millionaires

$8.9 billion Low income housing programs   $8.9 billion Mortgage interest
deduction for vacation homes (10 years)

$7.6 billion Supplemental nutrition for poor families (WIC)  $6.7 billion
Cost of “estate planning” techniques used by wealthy to avoid taxes

$4.6 billion Teacher training and afterschool programs      $5.2 billion
Cost of removing limit on itemized deductions for high income

taxpayers (in 2011) 

$4.1 billion Job training for unemployed and new workers   $4.1 billion Cost
of tax breaks for offshore operations of U.S. financial companies 

$2.5 billion Low income energy assistance (LIHEAP) grants for poor  $2.5
billion Tax breaks for oil companies (write-offs 

for drilling and oil well costs in 2012) 

$2.5 billion Community health centers   $4.9 billion Cost of extending
alcohol fuel tax breaks 

$2.0 billion Homeless assistance grants  $2.3 billion Tax loopholes for
managers of hedge funds and private equity funds 

(in 2012) 

$420 million Legal services for the poor  $312 million Company write offs of
punitive damages (10 years) 

$317 million Title X family planning      $303 million Special tax breaks
for timber industry 

$44 billion All programs at risk combined 

$42 billion One year cost of extending Bush tax cuts for top brackets (2012)

See this link for more information and sources for these amounts.  Most
figures are from various government sources.

<http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/02/tax_breaks_infographic.html>
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/02/tax_breaks_infographic.html

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