[Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaksvs.BudgetCuts
James Wiegel
jfwiegel at yahoo.com
Wed Mar 9 19:49:44 CST 2011
This adds a dimension to the conversation
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110309/ts_yblog_thelookout/jobs-returning-but-good-ones-not-so-much
Jim Wiegel
People need trees. They need to see leaves from their windows, to sit in green spaces, and to play in the shade. Trees draw people out from behind walls of brick and glass, and in coming together, neighbors forge relationships, nurture children, and build a sense of community. Tina Prow
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel
jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
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--- On Wed, 3/9/11, Bill Schlesinger <pvida at whc.net> wrote:
From: Bill Schlesinger <pvida at whc.net>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaksvs.BudgetCuts
To: "'Colleague Dialogue'" <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Wednesday, March 9, 2011, 12:03 PM
I’d assume ‘cheating’ at all levels by all
people – ‘Total Depravity’ – but would suggest that it’s pretty much of a wash
between ‘welfare cheats’ and ‘tax cheats’ and not make this a significant
variable between socio-economic or ethnic groups. I think that the evaluation
of tax breaks vs. spending needs some more thought regarding economic impact
(tax breaks need an evidenced-base connection to additional spending that
creates jobs that I haven’t seen in the literature; spending at low income
levels results in almost immediate consumer purchasing per the Nintendo story
which provided jobs for at least the retail and trucking industry).
Moralistic evaluations of any particular
group of folk are pretty useless in economic analysis.
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue
El Paso, TX 79905
(915) 533-7057 x 207
(915) 533-7158 FAX
pvida at whc.net
www.projectvidaelpaso.org
From:
dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of James Wiegel
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011
11:02 AM
To: Colleague Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fw: Our
USA national priorities - Tax Breaksvs.BudgetCuts
Wonderful conversation . . . What would it
take to go deeply enough into the budget questions and their implications and
hidden agendas to find a way forward that isn't snarky?
Jim Wiegel
People need trees. They need to see leaves from their windows, to sit in
green spaces, and to play in the shade. Trees draw people out from behind
walls of brick and glass, and in coming together, neighbors forge
relationships, nurture children, and build a sense of community. Tina Prow
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
+1 623-363-3277 skype: jfredwiegel
jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
UPCOMING TRAINING OPPORTUNITIES FROM PARTNERS IN PARTICIPATION
ToP Facilitation Methods, May 17-18, Sept 20-21, 2011
Facilitation Graphics, Mar 15, 2011
ToP Strategic Planning, Nov 8-9, 2011
The AZ Community of Practice meets the 1st Friday of every month at 1 pm
Facilitation Mastery : Our Mastering the Technology of Participation program
is available in Phoenix in 2011-12. Program begins on Oct 12-14, 2011. See
our website for further details.
--- On Wed, 3/9/11, Geri Tolman <gdtolman at comcast.net>
wrote:
From: Geri Tolman <gdtolman at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaks
vs.BudgetCuts
To: "'Colleague Dialogue'" <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Wednesday, March 9, 2011, 10:14 AM
George, it would
only be snarky if you were claiming that fraud in the welfare system
doesn't exist...Which you are not!
I don't know how
widespread it is, either - I only personally know of 3 cases - and they
make my blood boil.
My bottom line is
this: let's not fall into the trap of thinking that all
welfare recipients are "virtuous innocents", and all of the
wealthy are "villianous thieves". Overly-simplified comparisons (like
that put forth by americanprogress.org) do little to move the debate forward
to find much-needed solutions - I think they widen the divide and further
polarize our society.
None of
us would deny that our society is in deep trouble, and that those
"at risk" need better structures of support.
The
"categories" in the list which sparked this discussion carried
(what I felt were) "emotionally charged" descriptions which
made me suspicious. The one I highlighted was the one that
assumed you could estimate the cost of estate planning; and assumed that
estate planning was only done by the wealthy to avoid paying taxes.
Estate planning can be done by "middle class folks", without paying
anyone any fees! And I'll bet fees vary widely. So how
can you come up with a number? Another category I wondered about was
the one referring to deducting mortgage interest on second homes, which I
think was taken out of the tax laws in 1987 (?? Randy, is this
true??). My nephew is a contractor - cheers to anybody who wants to
hire him to build however many extra homes they want....he needs the work,
and those folks can pay the property taxes to those communities.
The welfare
cheaters show their faces as little as possible. They are expert in
filing false paperwork, working "under the table", make most
of their money illegally, and only earn enough money legally to appear
"legitimate". The 3 cases I refer to are a cousin, and
siblings of 2 friends - all of whom defraud the welfare system. My
skepticism is based in watching my cousin operate on my aunt's bank accounts
as she was dying of lung cancer and he moved into her house "to
help her"....done "legally" (she signed the
paperwork). My mother asked me to get involved, so I did some
"research". Not saying how I found the data, but
he needed good records to keep all of his lies straight. He moves
between at least 3 states in New England; has received welfare from all
three. He's still shopping with food stamps in Massachusetts, and his 8
year old shows off her $200 Nintendo game at the local grocery
store. The system is so broken and over-burdened that it can't
effectively deal with reports of fraud, let alone provide adequate care for
those who really need it....and from all indicators, it's about to get a lot
worse.
Geri
From:
dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of R Williams
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011
9:13 AM
To: Colleague Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fw: Our
USA national priorities - Tax Breaks vs.BudgetCuts
I would have to look up the stats, but the numbers
I've seen are that by far the majority of people in the country who fall
below the federal government's poverty guideline (which is way too low
at just over $20k for a family of 4) are the very young, the very old,
the chronically ill and the working poor (full-time jobs but still below
the poverty line.)
Randy
--- On Tue, 3/8/11, George Holcombe <geowanda at earthlink.net>
wrote:
From: George Holcombe <geowanda at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Fw: Our USA national priorities - Tax Breaks vs.
BudgetCuts
To: "Colleague Dialogue" <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Tuesday, March 8, 2011, 9:21 PM
Not to be snarky, Geri, but I've worked with the
poor and homeless in several places most of my life, and I've yet to see
the cheating you report. Mostly because the laws are such that more
are excluded than helped. If you go through the steps to get
benefits, they take up a good deal of time and effort. The welfare
"queens and kings" are hard to find, even harder to document.
I have yet to see an unbiased study that demonstrates large amounts
of cheating. 40% of our children are in poverty today and we are
hemorrhaging homeless folks. The average age of homeless people in
Texas is 11. The wealthiest among us have a far better chance of avoiding
taxes and cashing in on the public trough at astronomical amounts.
The middle class is crashing. The largest transfer of wealth to the
top 1% of the population is unknown in prior history and is escalating.
The difficulty in our present situation is that at
a time we need a better educated, more mobile young people, education is a
non-priority, and increasingly out of reach of the middle class, let alone
the poor. It is difficult to collect great statistics for more than a
few reasons, but I imagine the situation is much more dire than Janice's
chart suggests.
I agree this is not a matter of left or right,
it's a matter of looking squarely at the situation as it is and looking for
workable solutions. Due to the way we elect people to public office,
I don't see any from that corner.
I'll be glad to discuss this off line if need be.
The Order moved to work with the poorest of the poor to learn and
practice transformational methods from the ground up; I imagine that is the
place to look for the new today. Maybe it's coming from the Middle
East.
George Holcombe
14900 Yellowleaf Tr.
Austin, TX 78728
Mobile 512/252-2756
geowanda at earthlink.net
“...we have the
choice: we can gratefully cultivate the relationships that make
us part of a vast network, or we can take them for granted
and allow them to wither and die.” Brother David
Steindl-Rast, Deeper than Words
On Mar 8, 2011, at 5:20 PM, Geri Tolman wrote:
Am I the only one who is skeptical about these numbers and
categories?
I haven't done the reading....do they explain how one calculates the "Cost of “estate planning”
techniques used by wealthy to avoid taxes"?
My healthy dose of skepticism is based on personal knowledge of too many people who cheat
the welfare system to get food stamps and low income housing
benefits. Not saying there aren't people who legitimately need these
services, just that there is way too much fraud and abuse.
Lists like these, whether from the left or the right, suggest
that there are easy solutions to very complex problems, and raise the
emotional hackles which tend to get in the way of generating clear-thinking
solutions.
Respectfully,
Geri Tolman
From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Janice
Ulangca
Sent: Tuesday, March 08,
2011 2:02 PM
To: Colleague Dialogue
Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Our USA
national priorities - Tax Breaks vs. BudgetCuts
Information on what
is up for cutting, and what's not, during budget discussions in the U.S.
Congress going on this week and next. Info is pasted into this
message. In the attachment, it's neatly arranged in columns
- hope you can open it. A link to sources for these figures is below.
Janice Ulangca
Programs at risk
Tax breaks for the
wealthy
$11.2 billion Early
childhood programs $11.5
billion Annual
cost of estate tax cuts for millionaires
$8.9 billion Low income housing
programs $8.9 billion Mortgage interest deduction
for vacation homes (10 years)
$7.6 billion Supplemental
nutrition for poor families (WIC) $6.7 billion Cost of “estate planning”
techniques used by wealthy to avoid taxes
$4.6 billion Teacher training and
afterschool programs $5.2 billion Cost of removing limit on
itemized deductions for high income
taxpayers (in 2011)
$4.1 billion Job training for unemployed and
new workers $4.1 billion Cost of tax breaks for
offshore operations of U.S. financial companies
$2.5 billion Low
income energy assistance (LIHEAP) grants for poor $2.5 billion Tax
breaks for oil companies (write-offs
for drilling and oil well costs in
2012)
$2.5 billion Community
health centers $4.9 billion Cost
of extending alcohol fuel tax breaks
$2.0 billion Homeless
assistance grants $2.3 billion Tax
loopholes for managers of hedge funds and private equity funds
(in
2012)
$420 million Legal
services for the poor $312 million Company
write offs of punitive damages (10 years)
$317 million Title
X family planning $303 million Special
tax breaks for timber industry
$44 billion All programs at risk combined
$42 billion One year cost of extending Bush tax cuts for top
brackets (2012)
See this link for more
information and sources for these amounts. Most figures are
from various government sources.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/02/tax_breaks_infographic.html
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