[Dialogue] A Book Question

Sun Feb 19 07:26:27 EST 2012

Wow.  I guess there are some strong feelings going on here.  Not sure
‘arrogant’ or ‘narcissistic’ describe any of us (I’m pretty much there,
though).  

At least for Girard, the contrast is between religious traditions that
reify/deify/justify the continued scapegoating of us vs. them (he considers
that part of the demonic) and those (he identifies Judaism and uniquely the
Jesus story) that move towards clarifying the innocence of the victim and
the willingness of the victim to ‘take the hit’ (cf. Jeremiah getting tossed
in the well and the crucifixion) that discloses the emptiness of
imperial/coercive power.  He sees this as the root of the power of
non-violence that refuses to either destroy the other or to submit to its
dictates.  

What is currently called ‘fundamentalism’ is not a naïve reading of the
text.  It is the reaction – always a temptation in any tradition – to see
the other as the enemy and to justify the other’s destruction as a religious
act and obligation.  It is the creation of boundary lines/litmus tests to
mark off that which is ‘in’ and ‘out’ for the purpose of sanctioning the
destruction of what is ‘out.’  

That temptation exists in all institutions and all styles of theologizing.  

Respectfully to all -

Bill Schlesinger

Project Vida

3607 Rivera Avenue

El Paso, TX 79905

(915) 533-7057 x 207

(915) 533-7158 FAX

 <mailto:pvida at whc.net> pvida at whc.net

www.projectvidaelpaso.org

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of darrell walker
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 10:02 PM
To: Colleague Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Book Question

Gene, please know that not everyone agrees with your assessments.  First,
Moses didn't lead a bunch of slaves out of Egypt; he led the remains of the
Hyksos kings out after they were ejected by the pharaoh of Upper Egypt.  And
rightly so.  Re-read the 47th Chapter of Genesis where Joseph brings Egypt
under subjigation for the foreigh pharaoh.  The book of Exodus is a racist,
fantastic lie.  

Also your continuing condemnation of Mythic religion (per Ken Wilber) shows
your arrogant Spiral Dynamics Green level in its most elegant narcissistic
colors.  If you had any rudimentary understanding of spiritual evolution you
would know that the Mythic level (read fundamentalist) is a neccesary step
in the process and not to be denigrated.

    Darrell Walker

I Moses led a bunch of slaves out of hierarchical civilization into a new
sort of tribal society.

And it was Awe in the deep meaning of that word that underlies the courage
of Moses, Amos, Jesus, Paul, Augustine, Luther, etc.

I am defining Awe in a very Joe Mathews/Rudolf Otto way as: dread,
fascination, and the courage to live those intensities.  In other works Awe
is a word that describes a full experience of Reality with a capital "R."
Tea party christianity and all other sick religions actually suppress Awe in
order do be devoted to reality with a small "r."  That is, they are devoted
to an illusion, to a substitute for Reality.  The Radical Monotheism of H.
Richard Niebuhr and the best of Christian Jewish and Muslim heritage is a
devotion to the fullness of Realty and therefore to an experience of Awe
before a truly Awesome Reality.

This is a brief summary of the direction I believe we must explore to come
up with a clarifying philosophy of religion.

By the way I would like everyone reading this message to know that I am
inviting all my friends and acquaintances to help me write a book on the
philosophy of religion.  I now have 19 chapters of a book entitled The
Enigma of Consciousness up on our website ready for download.  All you have
to do is go to:

http://www.RealisticLiving.org/PDF/Enigma/

and click the chapters you want to read.   E-mail any responses to me at
jgmarshall at cableone.net

For a viable and flourishing humanity on planet Earth,

Gene

On Feb 18, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Ken Fisher wrote:

Begin forwarded message:

From: pvida at WHC.NET

Date: February 18, 2012 1:04:05 PM EST

To: "Colleague Dialogue"<dialogue at wedgeblade.net>

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Book Question

Reply-To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>

Interesting. But my sense of any tradition that claims loyalty and offers
meaning with the claim to transcend other loyalties is that it often fits
Gerard's analysis.  Scapegoating and 'us vs. them' seems to describe the
religion of tea party christianity pretty well.

Much as appreciate Gene, I mistrust the awe underlying imperial religions.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

-----Original message-----

Bill,

For your consideration:

Adding to this thread, as I recall Gene's response to my Rene Girard
enthusiasm, it was:

'Religion starts with awe - not scape-goating and sacrifice.'

Ken

On 2012-02-18, at 9:12 AM, Bill Schlesinger wrote:

I've found the work of Rene Girard very helpful.  Things Hidden Since the
Foundation of the World, I See Satan Fall Like Lightning (both available
from Amazon). 

He developed the theory of mimetic desire (I see you have it therefore I
want it), violence and scapegoating, and the unique role of Judeo-Xn clarity
on the innocence of the sacrifice (vs. justified scape-goating) in
de-mystifying the 'us against them' rationale of power.

Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue
El Paso, TX 79905
(915) 533-7057 x 207
(915) 533-7158 FAX
pvida at whc.net
www.projectvidaelpaso.org

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Wilson Priscilla
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:41 AM
To: Dialogue ica
Subject: [Dialogue] A Book Question

I belong to a women's book study group at Village Presbyterian Church. We
have studied Marcus Borg, Karen Armstrong, Bruce Chilton's Rabbi Jesus,
among others. We are just finishing Brian McLaren's A New Kind of
Christianity. Brian is coming to our church in April to speak. Borg has been
here also.
I consider our church on the edge re mission, pursuing the question of where
the next phase of Christianity needs to take us, etc.

I would appreciate any suggestions for books from any of you. We finish
McLaren in mid-March and haven't decided what next.
Priscilla

Priscilla H Wilson
Pris at TeamTechPress.com
913-432-2107
www.teamtechpress.com

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