[Dialogue] A Book Question recreated into a philosophicaldiscussion if you're into such things.

Sun Feb 19 09:23:33 EST 2012

"demonic possession of beloved souls"???  Is typical teenage behavior to be labeled as demonic?  Yes, culture has gone (and continues) through evolutionary stages as described by Ken Wilber and others.  But to label such as demonic puts one in the same "us vs. them" level as the adolescents.  The current rich/poor economic culture will, in the future, be seen as a primitive evolutionary step.  And, yes, juvenile behavior needs boundaries placed on it.  But let's not be labeling everyone who is not as "sophisticated" as ourselves as "sick" and "demonic."  A little Spiral Dynamics second tier yellow thinking would be helpful here.
    Darrell Walker  

Seems as though the question is whether there is progression from one level to another, or whether there is a radical discontinuity between one way and another.  Not sure there's a definitive answer since both perspectives have strong support throughout the years.

  Probably some traditions would see it as the shedding of various levels of illusion, others as evolutionary development of the self, and yet others as 'once I was blind but now I see' transformation.  

  For me, the destruction that is created by the pattern below - the justified abuse of others in slavery, Jim Crow, Naziism, treating women as property, Stalinism, McCarthyism, anti-immigrant sentiment (the list is long and across any imaginable boundaries) - is to be resisted as the demonic possession of beloved souls.

  Bill Schlesinger

  Project Vida

  3607 Rivera Avenue

  El Paso, TX 79905

  (915) 533-7057 x 207

  (915) 533-7158 FAX

  pvida at whc.net

  www.projectvidaelpaso.org

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  From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of darrell walker
  Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 6:33 AM
  To: Colleague Dialogue
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Book Question

  This statement by Gene, 

  "Tea party christianity and all other sick religions actually suppress Awe in order do be devoted to reality with a small "r."  That is, they are devoted to an illusion, to a substitute for Reality."

  coupled with this statement by Bill

  "What is currently called 'fundamentalism' is not a naïve reading of the text.  It is the reaction - always a temptation in any tradition - to see the other as the enemy and to justify the other's destruction as a religious act and obligation.  It is the creation of boundary lines/litmus tests to mark off that which is 'in' and 'out' for the purpose of sanctioning the destruction of what is 'out."

  beutifully characterize the Mythic blue level of spiritual evolvement.  It is adolescent, it is religion of us vs. them, it is the teenage years of spiritual evolvement.  But it is not sick.  It is a necessary step on the path toward the second tier so elegantly described by Richar Rohr if time is taken to read him.

      And to define Reality, with a capital "R," as being my version of truth is, indeed, narcissitic.  Rohr is way beyond this level of thinking and he is not so arrogant as to capitalize his "truth."

      Darrell

    At least for Girard, the contrast is between religious traditions that reify/deify/justify the continued scapegoating of us vs. them (he considers that part of the demonic) and those (he identifies Judaism and uniquely the Jesus story) that move towards clarifying the innocence of the victim and the willingness of the victim to 'take the hit' (cf. Jeremiah getting tossed in the well and the crucifixion) that discloses the emptiness of imperial/coercive power.  He sees this as the root of the power of non-violence that refuses to either destroy the other or to submit to its dictates.  

    What is currently called 'fundamentalism' is not a naïve reading of the text.  It is the reaction - always a temptation in any tradition - to see the other as the enemy and to justify the other's destruction as a religious act and obligation.  It is the creation of boundary lines/litmus tests to mark off that which is 'in' and 'out' for the purpose of sanctioning the destruction of what is 'out.'  

    That temptation exists in all institutions and all styles of theologizing.  

    Respectfully to all -

    Bill Schlesinger

    Project Vida

    3607 Rivera Avenue

    El Paso, TX 79905

    (915) 533-7057 x 207

    (915) 533-7158 FAX

    pvida at whc.net

    www.projectvidaelpaso.org

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    From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of darrell walker
    Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 10:02 PM
    To: Colleague Dialogue
    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Book Question

    Gene, please know that not everyone agrees with your assessments.  First, Moses didn't lead a bunch of slaves out of Egypt; he led the remains of the Hyksos kings out after they were ejected by the pharaoh of Upper Egypt.  And rightly so.  Re-read the 47th Chapter of Genesis where Joseph brings Egypt under subjigation for the foreigh pharaoh.  The book of Exodus is a racist, fantastic lie.  

    Also your continuing condemnation of Mythic religion (per Ken Wilber) shows your arrogant Spiral Dynamics Green level in its most elegant narcissistic colors.  If you had any rudimentary understanding of spiritual evolution you would know that the Mythic level (read fundamentalist) is a neccesary step in the process and not to be denigrated.

        Darrell Walker

      I Moses led a bunch of slaves out of hierarchical civilization into a new sort of tribal society.

      And it was Awe in the deep meaning of that word that underlies the courage of Moses, Amos, Jesus, Paul, Augustine, Luther, etc.

      I am defining Awe in a very Joe Mathews/Rudolf Otto way as: dread, fascination, and the courage to live those intensities.  In other works Awe is a word that describes a full experience of Reality with a capital "R."  Tea party christianity and all other sick religions actually suppress Awe in order do be devoted to reality with a small "r."  That is, they are devoted to an illusion, to a substitute for Reality.  The Radical Monotheism of H. Richard Niebuhr and the best of Christian Jewish and Muslim heritage is a devotion to the fullness of Realty and therefore to an experience of Awe before a truly Awesome Reality.Tea party christianity and all other sick religions actually suppress Awe in order do be devoted to reality with a small "r."  That is, they are devoted to an illusion, to a substitute for Reality.

      This is a brief summary of the direction I believe we must explore to come up with a clarifying philosophy of religion.

      By the way I would like everyone reading this message to know that I am inviting all my friends and acquaintances to help me write a book on the philosophy of religion.  I now have 19 chapters of a book entitled The Enigma of Consciousness up on our website ready for download.  All you have to do is go to:

      http://www.RealisticLiving.org/PDF/Enigma/

      and click the chapters you want to read.   E-mail any responses to me at jgmarshall at cableone.net

      For a viable and flourishing humanity on planet Earth,

      Gene

      On Feb 18, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Ken Fisher wrote:

      Begin forwarded message:

      From: pvida at WHC.NET

      Date: February 18, 2012 1:04:05 PM EST

      To: "Colleague Dialogue"<dialogue at wedgeblade.net>

      Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Book Question

      Reply-To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>

      Interesting. But my sense of any tradition that claims loyalty and offers meaning with the claim to transcend other loyalties is that it often fits Gerard's analysis.  Scapegoating and 'us vs. them' seems to describe the religion of tea party christianity pretty well.

      Much as appreciate Gene, I mistrust the awe underlying imperial religions.

      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

      -----Original message-----

      Bill,

      For your consideration:

      Adding to this thread, as I recall Gene's response to my Rene Girard enthusiasm, it was:

      'Religion starts with awe - not scape-goating and sacrifice.'

      Ken

      On 2012-02-18, at 9:12 AM, Bill Schlesinger wrote:

      I've found the work of Rene Girard very helpful.  Things Hidden Since the
      Foundation of the World, I See Satan Fall Like Lightning (both available
      from Amazon). 

      He developed the theory of mimetic desire (I see you have it therefore I
      want it), violence and scapegoating, and the unique role of Judeo-Xn clarity
      on the innocence of the sacrifice (vs. justified scape-goating) in
      de-mystifying the 'us against them' rationale of power.

      Bill Schlesinger
      Project Vida
      3607 Rivera Avenue
      El Paso, TX 79905
      (915) 533-7057 x 207
      (915) 533-7158 FAX
      pvida at whc.net
      www.projectvidaelpaso.org

      -----Original Message-----
      From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
      [mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Wilson Priscilla
      Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:41 AM
      To: Dialogue ica
      Subject: [Dialogue] A Book Question

      I belong to a women's book study group at Village Presbyterian Church. We
      have studied Marcus Borg, Karen Armstrong, Bruce Chilton's Rabbi Jesus,
      among others. We are just finishing Brian McLaren's A New Kind of
      Christianity. Brian is coming to our church in April to speak. Borg has been
      here also.
      I consider our church on the edge re mission, pursuing the question of where
      the next phase of Christianity needs to take us, etc.

      I would appreciate any suggestions for books from any of you. We finish
      McLaren in mid-March and haven't decided what next.
      Priscilla

      Priscilla H Wilson
      Pris at TeamTechPress.com
      913-432-2107
      www.teamtechpress.com

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