[Dialogue] A Book Question recreated into aphilosophicaldiscussion if you're into such things.
Bill Schlesinger
pvida at WHC.NET
Sun Feb 19 09:51:05 EST 2012
Not sophisticated. I certainly participate in the attachment to my agency
vs. others, my community vs. others. But I don’t see it as ‘developmental’
when the most sophisticated and philosophically gifted among us (Germany in
the pre-war period) gives itself over to mass destruction. I appreciate
‘ontogeny recapitulates philogeny’ in individual growth, but the historical
record isn’t – from my reading – one of spiralling progress as much as
struggle between the choice of compassion or scapegoating.
‘Rich/poor culture’ is a constant in human history. There doesn’t seem to
have been much evolution so far. The difference is in how it is perceived
and addressed by different folk and different streams of thought (often
differing within the same tradition). The Hebrew Bible in some places sees
rich/poor as a negative – Amos reiterates the charge (‘you sell the needy
for a pair of shoes’) and Jubilee seeks to mitigate the impact. The New
Testament sees it as a scandal (literally – a trap) as the rich man ignores
the poor man at his doorstep.
Some of the least ‘sophisticated’ folk – the naïve readers of the text in Le
Chambeau ( village in Vichy France memorialized in the Garden of the
Righteous in Israel) – were the most compassionate in the face of
scapegoating. Their version of literalism was used to allow themselves to
see beyond us vs. them. Typical teenage behavior is often heroic and
compassionate; ‘mean girls (and boys)’ is no more ‘typical’ than those who
volunteer, stand up for others, or have dreams of saving the world.
There’s a difference between developmental stages of capacity and
understanding and the posture/decision/showing up of compassion for the
other vs. scapegoating. That posture exists in all developmental stages.
At least that’s my experience.
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue
El Paso, TX 79905
(915) 533-7057 x 207
(915) 533-7158 FAX
<mailto:pvida at whc.net> pvida at whc.net
www.projectvidaelpaso.org
_____
From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of darrell walker
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 7:24 AM
To: Colleague Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Book Question recreated into
aphilosophicaldiscussion if you're into such things.
"demonic possession of beloved souls"??? Is typical teenage behavior to be
labeled as demonic? Yes, culture has gone (and continues) through
evolutionary stages as described by Ken Wilber and others. But to label
such as demonic puts one in the same "us vs. them" level as the adolescents.
The current rich/poor economic culture will, in the future, be seen as a
primitive evolutionary step. And, yes, juvenile behavior needs boundaries
placed on it. But let's not be labeling everyone who is not as
"sophisticated" as ourselves as "sick" and "demonic." A little Spiral
Dynamics second tier yellow thinking would be helpful here.
Darrell Walker
Seems as though the question is whether there is progression from one level
to another, or whether there is a radical discontinuity between one way and
another. Not sure there’s a definitive answer since both perspectives have
strong support throughout the years.
Probably some traditions would see it as the shedding of various levels of
illusion, others as evolutionary development of the self, and yet others as
‘once I was blind but now I see’ transformation.
For me, the destruction that is created by the pattern below – the justified
abuse of others in slavery, Jim Crow, Naziism, treating women as property,
Stalinism, McCarthyism, anti-immigrant sentiment (the list is long and
across any imaginable boundaries) – is to be resisted as the demonic
possession of beloved souls.
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue
El Paso, TX 79905
(915) 533-7057 x 207
(915) 533-7158 FAX
<mailto:pvida at whc.net> pvida at whc.net
www.projectvidaelpaso.org
_____
From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of darrell walker
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 6:33 AM
To: Colleague Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Book Question
This statement by Gene,
"Tea party christianity and all other sick religions actually suppress Awe
in order do be devoted to reality with a small "r." That is, they are
devoted to an illusion, to a substitute for Reality."
coupled with this statement by Bill
"What is currently called ‘fundamentalism’ is not a naïve reading of the
text. It is the reaction – always a temptation in any tradition – to see
the other as the enemy and to justify the other’s destruction as a religious
act and obligation. It is the creation of boundary lines/litmus tests to
mark off that which is ‘in’ and ‘out’ for the purpose of sanctioning the
destruction of what is ‘out."
beutifully characterize the Mythic blue level of spiritual evolvement. It
is adolescent, it is religion of us vs. them, it is the teenage years of
spiritual evolvement. But it is not sick. It is a necessary step on the
path toward the second tier so elegantly described by Richar Rohr if time is
taken to read him.
And to define Reality, with a capital "R," as being my version of truth
is, indeed, narcissitic. Rohr is way beyond this level of thinking and he
is not so arrogant as to capitalize his "truth."
Darrell
At least for Girard, the contrast is between religious traditions that
reify/deify/justify the continued scapegoating of us vs. them (he considers
that part of the demonic) and those (he identifies Judaism and uniquely the
Jesus story) that move towards clarifying the innocence of the victim and
the willingness of the victim to ‘take the hit’ (cf. Jeremiah getting tossed
in the well and the crucifixion) that discloses the emptiness of
imperial/coercive power. He sees this as the root of the power of
non-violence that refuses to either destroy the other or to submit to its
dictates.
What is currently called ‘fundamentalism’ is not a naïve reading of the
text. It is the reaction – always a temptation in any tradition – to see
the other as the enemy and to justify the other’s destruction as a religious
act and obligation. It is the creation of boundary lines/litmus tests to
mark off that which is ‘in’ and ‘out’ for the purpose of sanctioning the
destruction of what is ‘out.’
That temptation exists in all institutions and all styles of theologizing.
Respectfully to all -
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue
El Paso, TX 79905
(915) 533-7057 x 207
(915) 533-7158 FAX
<mailto:pvida at whc.net> pvida at whc.net
www.projectvidaelpaso.org
_____
From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of darrell walker
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 10:02 PM
To: Colleague Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Book Question
Gene, please know that not everyone agrees with your assessments. First,
Moses didn't lead a bunch of slaves out of Egypt; he led the remains of the
Hyksos kings out after they were ejected by the pharaoh of Upper Egypt. And
rightly so. Re-read the 47th Chapter of Genesis where Joseph brings Egypt
under subjigation for the foreigh pharaoh. The book of Exodus is a racist,
fantastic lie.
Also your continuing condemnation of Mythic religion (per Ken Wilber) shows
your arrogant Spiral Dynamics Green level in its most elegant narcissistic
colors. If you had any rudimentary understanding of spiritual evolution you
would know that the Mythic level (read fundamentalist) is a neccesary step
in the process and not to be denigrated.
Darrell Walker
I Moses led a bunch of slaves out of hierarchical civilization into a new
sort of tribal society.
And it was Awe in the deep meaning of that word that underlies the courage
of Moses, Amos, Jesus, Paul, Augustine, Luther, etc.
I am defining Awe in a very Joe Mathews/Rudolf Otto way as: dread,
fascination, and the courage to live those intensities. In other works Awe
is a word that describes a full experience of Reality with a capital "R."
Tea party christianity and all other sick religions actually suppress Awe in
order do be devoted to reality with a small "r." That is, they are devoted
to an illusion, to a substitute for Reality. The Radical Monotheism of H.
Richard Niebuhr and the best of Christian Jewish and Muslim heritage is a
devotion to the fullness of Realty and therefore to an experience of Awe
before a truly Awesome Reality.Tea party christianity and all other sick
religions actually suppress Awe in order do be devoted to reality with a
small "r." That is, they are devoted to an illusion, to a substitute for
Reality.
This is a brief summary of the direction I believe we must explore to come
up with a clarifying philosophy of religion.
By the way I would like everyone reading this message to know that I am
inviting all my friends and acquaintances to help me write a book on the
philosophy of religion. I now have 19 chapters of a book entitled The
Enigma of Consciousness up on our website ready for download. All you have
to do is go to:
http://www.RealisticLiving.org/PDF/Enigma/
and click the chapters you want to read. E-mail any responses to me at
jgmarshall at cableone.net
For a viable and flourishing humanity on planet Earth,
Gene
On Feb 18, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Ken Fisher wrote:
Begin forwarded message:
From: pvida at WHC.NET
Date: February 18, 2012 1:04:05 PM EST
To: "Colleague Dialogue"<dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Book Question
Reply-To: Colleague Dialogue <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
Interesting. But my sense of any tradition that claims loyalty and offers
meaning with the claim to transcend other loyalties is that it often fits
Gerard's analysis. Scapegoating and 'us vs. them' seems to describe the
religion of tea party christianity pretty well.
Much as appreciate Gene, I mistrust the awe underlying imperial religions.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
-----Original message-----
Bill,
For your consideration:
Adding to this thread, as I recall Gene's response to my Rene Girard
enthusiasm, it was:
'Religion starts with awe - not scape-goating and sacrifice.'
Ken
On 2012-02-18, at 9:12 AM, Bill Schlesinger wrote:
I've found the work of Rene Girard very helpful. Things Hidden Since the
Foundation of the World, I See Satan Fall Like Lightning (both available
from Amazon).
He developed the theory of mimetic desire (I see you have it therefore I
want it), violence and scapegoating, and the unique role of Judeo-Xn clarity
on the innocence of the sacrifice (vs. justified scape-goating) in
de-mystifying the 'us against them' rationale of power.
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Avenue
El Paso, TX 79905
(915) 533-7057 x 207
(915) 533-7158 FAX
pvida at whc.net
www.projectvidaelpaso.org
-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Wilson Priscilla
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:41 AM
To: Dialogue ica
Subject: [Dialogue] A Book Question
I belong to a women's book study group at Village Presbyterian Church. We
have studied Marcus Borg, Karen Armstrong, Bruce Chilton's Rabbi Jesus,
among others. We are just finishing Brian McLaren's A New Kind of
Christianity. Brian is coming to our church in April to speak. Borg has been
here also.
I consider our church on the edge re mission, pursuing the question of where
the next phase of Christianity needs to take us, etc.
I would appreciate any suggestions for books from any of you. We finish
McLaren in mid-March and haven't decided what next.
Priscilla
Priscilla H Wilson
Pris at TeamTechPress.com
913-432-2107
www.teamtechpress.com
_______________________________________________
Dialogue mailing list
Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________
Dialogue mailing list
Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_wedgeblade.net
_____
_______________________________________________
Dialogue mailing list
Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_wedgeblade.net
_____
_______________________________________________
Dialogue mailing list
Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_wedgeblade.net
_____
_______________________________________________
Dialogue mailing list
Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/dialogue_wedgeblade.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/dialogue_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20120219/18bbdb9f/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the Dialogue
mailing list