[Oe List ...] Perverted Vision, Perverted Ethics
Paula Philbrook
paula.philbrook at gmail.com
Thu Aug 23 23:40:31 EDT 2007
Thank you Shelley,
On 8/23/07, Shelley Hahn <shahn at iquest.net> wrote:
>
> As someone who was very young in the Order, I'm not sure I ever really
> understood what secondary integrity was about, and I'm pretty sure I don't
> understand it much more now. Also, I'm not the most brilliant nor
> educated
> nor articulate among this group, so I'm somewhat hesitant to even enter
> the
> discussion ... but I feel compelled to.
>
> I don't know about primary or secondary integrity ... I feel like I just
> know
> about integrity without any descriptors attached. I suppose "primary
> integrity" at it's worst is legalistic, moralistic and unforgiving. And I
> suppose "secondary integrity" at its worst is nothing more than
> rationalized
> dishonesty. I've seen people operate with "primary integrity" to the
> exclusion of compassion and wisdom. I've seem even more instances where I
> know people would think themselves to be operating out of "secondary
> integrity" when all they're doing it presenting whatever story they feel
> is
> necessary to get their way. And in my book, there are few things worse
> than
> being railroaded, not allowed to make my own decision based on complete
> and
> accurate information. (Now, I have good friends who would argue that
> there's
> no such thing as reality, only story, but that's another discussion.)
>
> I liked Marilyn's use of the word discernment. In my experience, there
> are
> some black and white situations in life, and in those, decisions of
> integrity
> are often clear cut. But there's a whole lot of gray in life as well, and
> I
> agree that prayerful discernment is what's required in those situations.
> Making decisions in that mode to me is living in integrity--primary,
> secondary
> or otherwise.
>
> I know when I'm living in integrity. There is something in my
> faith-filled
> being that just knows. More importantly, I know when I'm not living with
> integrity, and that's a crappy place to be. I know when my "higher self"
> is
> present and when it's not. For me, that is the most important thing where
> integrity is concerned.
>
> My humble offerings ...
>
> Shelley Hahn
>
> Quoting "W. J." <synergi at yahoo.com>:
>
> > Having been compared to Karl Rove, I am very aware that there was (and
> is) a
> > major difference between Us and Them. The Order:Ecumenical wasn't really
> > about screwing the world and the environment for the short term gain of
> a few
> > corporate capitalists.
> >
> >
> > Despite the reality of 'unintended consequences', the process of
> discerning
> > and articulating a vision of global inclusion and participation, and
> rolling
> > out an army of volunteers to facilitate a process of comprehensive
> > socio-economic village development can't be compared to the invasion of
> the
> > Bushies.
> >
> > But it was an 'invasion' by an 'elite' with a 'vision' and a 'model'
> for
> > 'bending history' (Stalin's model of social change). And when you
> destabilize
> > the status quo and induce social and economic change, you're very
> vulnerable
> > to getting shot down.
> >
> > It's also a very privileged position. You're just out there, and it
> feels
> > like an 'Oh shit!' moment. All the time.
> >
> > Then there's that damned consensus-making. I mean it's like moving an
> Army.
> > The whole Army's on the move, and the direction is set. And you're
> either
> > part of it, or you're not.
> >
> > Secondary Integrity is like being in the Army. It's the integrity of a
> > global enterprise, of historical change, of being on the Long March of
> Care.
> > And sometimes your Primary Integrity feels like screaming, 'Hey, wait a
> > minute!' or 'I didn't vote for that!'
> >
> > But finally your Primary Integrity gets expended--fizzled, if you
> > will--like air rushing out of a balloon. That's just the way it is. And
> when
> > your fizzle is done, either your expenditure has participated in a great
> > moment of bending history, or you've maybe done something else.
> >
> > If we're lucky (and blessed) we may get to participate in a great
> > historical movement of Secondary Integrity. And in that expenditure our
> > Primary Integrity gets busted flat and hung out to dry. But experiencing
> > Secondary Integrity is being one's being in relation to a very
> mysterious
> > reality. It's like dancing with the Mystery itself.
> >
> > Karl Rove, on the other hand, got to dance with a President.
> >
> > Marshall Jones
> >
> > BTW, Randy, I also filmed the well in Bayad. The water was real. No
> slick
> > tricks. No smoke and mirrors.
> >
> >
> > R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > No disrespect intended for Marshall, but his reasoning regarding the
> well
> > in Maliwada makes him a prime candidate to be Karl Rove's successor. I
> too
> > was a part of the "sell the well" activity, in my case the well in
> Bayad, not
> > Maliwada. The practical problem with that is, in the face of short term
> > gain, the funding sources sooner or later discover you have no
> integrity,
> > i.e. you do not do what you say you will do, the funding dries up, and
> the
> > reputation follows you around the world.
> >
> > But the moral problem is in the assumption that appears to be behind a
> > group of elites believing they know what's good for everyone. "You
> don't
> > have the ??? (big picture, vocational commitment, spiritual depth, or
> > whatever) to know what's needed, but I do, and I'll tell you whatever I
> must
> > to get you to do what I've decided you need to do. I'm a 'spirit
> person' and
> > you're an ass, the 'donkey on the bridge,' an 'infidel.'" From this
> kind of
> > "elitism," the approach becomes coercion and manipulation from a
> "subject" to
> > an "object," an "I and it," rather than persuasion between two
> "subjects," an
> > "I and Thou." (Buber) In time this infects your internal relations as
> well
> > (elitism within the Order) and the whole system becomes corrupt as in
> Nazi
> > Germany or what this country begins to look like after nearly eight
> years of
> > Bush's thinking the American people don't have the sense (or whatever)
> to be
> > trusted with the basic freedoms afforded under the Constitution.
> >
> > I think Marilyn is onto something when she compares primary and
> secondary
> > integrity to Bonhoeffer's understanding of responsibility. For
> Bonhoeffer,
> > responsibility was not a choice between to be free OR to be obedient,
> but to
> > stand in the tension between the two. When you collapsed obedience and
> stood
> > only on the freedom pole you were the "irresponsible genius."
> >
> > So with intergrity--it is not a choice between primary OR secondary,
> but to
> > stand in the tension between the two. When you abandon primary
> integrity for
> > a perverted version of secondary integrity, you become Bonhoeffer's
> > "irresponsible genius." Maybe it plays out this way. If I have decided
> that
> > digging a well in Bayad (or Maliwada) is the "necessary deed" and I
> can't
> > persuade you to see it that way so that you provide the funding (primary
> > integrity), then I don't become "dissuaded" by your argument and end my
> > quest. Instead, if I believe it's really necessary, I go find someone
> else
> > who will see it my way and commit to pay for it (secondary integrity.)
> > History will decide if it was indeed necessary.
> >
> > I agree with Dick. I have pondered for a long time that we did often
> > operate from a perverted understanding of secondary integrity and that
> it did
> > hurt our effectiveness externally and our morale internally as an
> Order. I'm
> > glad we're talking about it now. Perhaps some more "fools" will "rush
> in" to
> > participate in this conversation.
> >
> > Randy Williams
> >
> > Marilyn R Crocker <marilyncrocker at juno.com> wrote:
> >
> > To: dialogue at wedgeblade.net
> > Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:07:58 -0400
> > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] {Disarmed} Re: Secondary Ethics
> >
> > Dick et al,
> >
> > My understanding of "secondary" integrity (as opposed to the rules,
> regs
> > and legalisms that,for me, represent "primary" integrity) is that which
> > guides one's actions in accord with the "necessary deed" -- the freely
> > responsible action (cf Bonhoeffer) which I've never found is a
> simplistic cop
> > out, but rather the result of complex, prayer filled discernment.
> >
> > I would be interested to know more about your thinking, Dick, that led
> you
> > to conclude this was our movement's most serious perversion.
> >
> > With appreciation for the resources you bring to our "virtual"
> collegium
> > room table,
> >
> > Marilyn
> >
> > Marilyn R. Crocker, Ed.D
> > Crocker & Associates, Inc.
> > 123 Sanborn Road
> > West Newfield, ME 04095
> > (207) 793-3711
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:23:34 EDT KroegerD at aol.com writes:
> >
> >
> > Here is a link to the subject not from the spirit movement.
> >
> >
> http://ezinearticles.com/?A-Model-of-Ethics-for-Womens-Development&id=654252
> >
> > On golden pathways a google search delivered only a speech by Mathews
> in
> > Korea. ( below )
> >
> > good luck with that!!
> >
> > In my words, secondary integrity means doing whatever is necessary,
> telling
> > story ( even if it is totally untrue) in order to ger 'er done. In my
> > opinion, it was our movement's most serious perversion, and ultimately
> did in
> > the spirit movement as an organization.
> >
> > Dick Kroeger
> >
> > Global Priors Council e all-new MailScanner has detected a
> possible
> > fraud attempt from "discover.aol.com" claiming to be AOL.com.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
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> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
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--
Paula
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