[Oe List ...] Perverted Vision, Perverted Ethics
Marianna Bailey
wmbailey at charter.net
Fri Aug 24 06:59:08 EDT 2007
Well said, Shelly!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shelley Hahn" <shahn at iquest.net>
To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Perverted Vision, Perverted Ethics
> As someone who was very young in the Order, I'm not sure I ever really
> understood what secondary integrity was about, and I'm pretty sure I don't
> understand it much more now. Also, I'm not the most brilliant nor
> educated
> nor articulate among this group, so I'm somewhat hesitant to even enter
> the
> discussion ... but I feel compelled to.
>
> I don't know about primary or secondary integrity ... I feel like I just
> know
> about integrity without any descriptors attached. I suppose "primary
> integrity" at it's worst is legalistic, moralistic and unforgiving. And I
> suppose "secondary integrity" at its worst is nothing more than
> rationalized
> dishonesty. I've seen people operate with "primary integrity" to the
> exclusion of compassion and wisdom. I've seem even more instances where I
> know people would think themselves to be operating out of "secondary
> integrity" when all they're doing it presenting whatever story they feel
> is
> necessary to get their way. And in my book, there are few things worse
> than
> being railroaded, not allowed to make my own decision based on complete
> and
> accurate information. (Now, I have good friends who would argue that
> there's
> no such thing as reality, only story, but that's another discussion.)
>
> I liked Marilyn's use of the word discernment. In my experience, there
> are
> some black and white situations in life, and in those, decisions of
> integrity
> are often clear cut. But there's a whole lot of gray in life as well, and
> I
> agree that prayerful discernment is what's required in those situations.
> Making decisions in that mode to me is living in integrity--primary,
> secondary
> or otherwise.
>
> I know when I'm living in integrity. There is something in my
> faith-filled
> being that just knows. More importantly, I know when I'm not living with
> integrity, and that's a crappy place to be. I know when my "higher self"
> is
> present and when it's not. For me, that is the most important thing where
> integrity is concerned.
>
> My humble offerings ...
>
> Shelley Hahn
>
> Quoting "W. J." <synergi at yahoo.com>:
>
>> Having been compared to Karl Rove, I am very aware that there was (and
>> is) a
>> major difference between Us and Them. The Order:Ecumenical wasn't really
>> about screwing the world and the environment for the short term gain of a
>> few
>> corporate capitalists.
>>
>>
>> Despite the reality of 'unintended consequences', the process of
>> discerning
>> and articulating a vision of global inclusion and participation, and
>> rolling
>> out an army of volunteers to facilitate a process of comprehensive
>> socio-economic village development can't be compared to the invasion of
>> the
>> Bushies.
>>
>> But it was an 'invasion' by an 'elite' with a 'vision' and a 'model'
>> for
>> 'bending history' (Stalin's model of social change). And when you
>> destabilize
>> the status quo and induce social and economic change, you're very
>> vulnerable
>> to getting shot down.
>>
>> It's also a very privileged position. You're just out there, and it
>> feels
>> like an 'Oh shit!' moment. All the time.
>>
>> Then there's that damned consensus-making. I mean it's like moving an
>> Army.
>> The whole Army's on the move, and the direction is set. And you're either
>> part of it, or you're not.
>>
>> Secondary Integrity is like being in the Army. It's the integrity of a
>> global enterprise, of historical change, of being on the Long March of
>> Care.
>> And sometimes your Primary Integrity feels like screaming, 'Hey, wait a
>> minute!' or 'I didn't vote for that!'
>>
>> But finally your Primary Integrity gets expended--fizzled, if you
>> will--like air rushing out of a balloon. That's just the way it is. And
>> when
>> your fizzle is done, either your expenditure has participated in a great
>> moment of bending history, or you've maybe done something else.
>>
>> If we're lucky (and blessed) we may get to participate in a great
>> historical movement of Secondary Integrity. And in that expenditure our
>> Primary Integrity gets busted flat and hung out to dry. But experiencing
>> Secondary Integrity is being one's being in relation to a very mysterious
>> reality. It's like dancing with the Mystery itself.
>>
>> Karl Rove, on the other hand, got to dance with a President.
>>
>> Marshall Jones
>>
>> BTW, Randy, I also filmed the well in Bayad. The water was real. No
>> slick
>> tricks. No smoke and mirrors.
>>
>>
>> R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> No disrespect intended for Marshall, but his reasoning regarding the
>> well
>> in Maliwada makes him a prime candidate to be Karl Rove's successor. I
>> too
>> was a part of the "sell the well" activity, in my case the well in Bayad,
>> not
>> Maliwada. The practical problem with that is, in the face of short term
>> gain, the funding sources sooner or later discover you have no integrity,
>> i.e. you do not do what you say you will do, the funding dries up, and
>> the
>> reputation follows you around the world.
>>
>> But the moral problem is in the assumption that appears to be behind a
>> group of elites believing they know what's good for everyone. "You don't
>> have the ??? (big picture, vocational commitment, spiritual depth, or
>> whatever) to know what's needed, but I do, and I'll tell you whatever I
>> must
>> to get you to do what I've decided you need to do. I'm a 'spirit person'
>> and
>> you're an ass, the 'donkey on the bridge,' an 'infidel.'" From this kind
>> of
>> "elitism," the approach becomes coercion and manipulation from a
>> "subject" to
>> an "object," an "I and it," rather than persuasion between two
>> "subjects," an
>> "I and Thou." (Buber) In time this infects your internal relations as
>> well
>> (elitism within the Order) and the whole system becomes corrupt as in
>> Nazi
>> Germany or what this country begins to look like after nearly eight years
>> of
>> Bush's thinking the American people don't have the sense (or whatever) to
>> be
>> trusted with the basic freedoms afforded under the Constitution.
>>
>> I think Marilyn is onto something when she compares primary and
>> secondary
>> integrity to Bonhoeffer's understanding of responsibility. For
>> Bonhoeffer,
>> responsibility was not a choice between to be free OR to be obedient, but
>> to
>> stand in the tension between the two. When you collapsed obedience and
>> stood
>> only on the freedom pole you were the "irresponsible genius."
>>
>> So with intergrity--it is not a choice between primary OR secondary,
>> but to
>> stand in the tension between the two. When you abandon primary integrity
>> for
>> a perverted version of secondary integrity, you become Bonhoeffer's
>> "irresponsible genius." Maybe it plays out this way. If I have decided
>> that
>> digging a well in Bayad (or Maliwada) is the "necessary deed" and I can't
>> persuade you to see it that way so that you provide the funding (primary
>> integrity), then I don't become "dissuaded" by your argument and end my
>> quest. Instead, if I believe it's really necessary, I go find someone
>> else
>> who will see it my way and commit to pay for it (secondary integrity.)
>> History will decide if it was indeed necessary.
>>
>> I agree with Dick. I have pondered for a long time that we did often
>> operate from a perverted understanding of secondary integrity and that it
>> did
>> hurt our effectiveness externally and our morale internally as an Order.
>> I'm
>> glad we're talking about it now. Perhaps some more "fools" will "rush
>> in" to
>> participate in this conversation.
>>
>> Randy Williams
>>
>> Marilyn R Crocker <marilyncrocker at juno.com> wrote:
>>
>> To: dialogue at wedgeblade.net
>> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:07:58 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] {Disarmed} Re: Secondary Ethics
>>
>> Dick et al,
>>
>> My understanding of "secondary" integrity (as opposed to the rules,
>> regs
>> and legalisms that,for me, represent "primary" integrity) is that which
>> guides one's actions in accord with the "necessary deed" -- the freely
>> responsible action (cf Bonhoeffer) which I've never found is a simplistic
>> cop
>> out, but rather the result of complex, prayer filled discernment.
>>
>> I would be interested to know more about your thinking, Dick, that led
>> you
>> to conclude this was our movement's most serious perversion.
>>
>> With appreciation for the resources you bring to our "virtual"
>> collegium
>> room table,
>>
>> Marilyn
>>
>> Marilyn R. Crocker, Ed.D
>> Crocker & Associates, Inc.
>> 123 Sanborn Road
>> West Newfield, ME 04095
>> (207) 793-3711
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:23:34 EDT KroegerD at aol.com writes:
>>
>>
>> Here is a link to the subject not from the spirit movement.
>>
>> http://ezinearticles.com/?A-Model-of-Ethics-for-Womens-Development&id=654252
>>
>> On golden pathways a google search delivered only a speech by Mathews
>> in
>> Korea. ( below )
>>
>> good luck with that!!
>>
>> In my words, secondary integrity means doing whatever is necessary,
>> telling
>> story ( even if it is totally untrue) in order to ger 'er done. In my
>> opinion, it was our movement's most serious perversion, and ultimately
>> did in
>> the spirit movement as an organization.
>>
>> Dick Kroeger
>>
>> Global Priors Council e all-new MailScanner has detected a possible
>> fraud attempt from "discover.aol.com" claiming to be AOL.com.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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