[Oe List ...] Perverted Vision, Perverted Ethics
Nancy Lanphear
nancy at songaia.com
Fri Aug 24 09:45:31 EDT 2007
Thank you Shelly for your thoughtful and well stated response. I
also appreciate your words as I have been thinking about this topic
for some time. You are loved,
Nancy
On Aug 24, 2007, at 3:59 AM, Marianna Bailey wrote:
> Well said, Shelly!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shelley Hahn" <shahn at iquest.net>
> To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 7:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Perverted Vision, Perverted Ethics
>
>
>> As someone who was very young in the Order, I'm not sure I ever
>> really
>> understood what secondary integrity was about, and I'm pretty sure
>> I don't
>> understand it much more now. Also, I'm not the most brilliant nor
>> educated
>> nor articulate among this group, so I'm somewhat hesitant to even
>> enter
>> the
>> discussion ... but I feel compelled to.
>>
>> I don't know about primary or secondary integrity ... I feel like
>> I just
>> know
>> about integrity without any descriptors attached. I suppose "primary
>> integrity" at it's worst is legalistic, moralistic and
>> unforgiving. And I
>> suppose "secondary integrity" at its worst is nothing more than
>> rationalized
>> dishonesty. I've seen people operate with "primary integrity" to the
>> exclusion of compassion and wisdom. I've seem even more instances
>> where I
>> know people would think themselves to be operating out of "secondary
>> integrity" when all they're doing it presenting whatever story
>> they feel
>> is
>> necessary to get their way. And in my book, there are few things
>> worse
>> than
>> being railroaded, not allowed to make my own decision based on
>> complete
>> and
>> accurate information. (Now, I have good friends who would argue that
>> there's
>> no such thing as reality, only story, but that's another discussion.)
>>
>> I liked Marilyn's use of the word discernment. In my experience,
>> there
>> are
>> some black and white situations in life, and in those, decisions of
>> integrity
>> are often clear cut. But there's a whole lot of gray in life as
>> well, and
>> I
>> agree that prayerful discernment is what's required in those
>> situations.
>> Making decisions in that mode to me is living in integrity--primary,
>> secondary
>> or otherwise.
>>
>> I know when I'm living in integrity. There is something in my
>> faith-filled
>> being that just knows. More importantly, I know when I'm not
>> living with
>> integrity, and that's a crappy place to be. I know when my
>> "higher self"
>> is
>> present and when it's not. For me, that is the most important
>> thing where
>> integrity is concerned.
>>
>> My humble offerings ...
>>
>> Shelley Hahn
>>
>> Quoting "W. J." <synergi at yahoo.com>:
>>
>>> Having been compared to Karl Rove, I am very aware that there was
>>> (and
>>> is) a
>>> major difference between Us and Them. The Order:Ecumenical wasn't
>>> really
>>> about screwing the world and the environment for the short term
>>> gain of a
>>> few
>>> corporate capitalists.
>>>
>>>
>>> Despite the reality of 'unintended consequences', the process of
>>> discerning
>>> and articulating a vision of global inclusion and participation, and
>>> rolling
>>> out an army of volunteers to facilitate a process of comprehensive
>>> socio-economic village development can't be compared to the
>>> invasion of
>>> the
>>> Bushies.
>>>
>>> But it was an 'invasion' by an 'elite' with a 'vision' and a
>>> 'model'
>>> for
>>> 'bending history' (Stalin's model of social change). And when you
>>> destabilize
>>> the status quo and induce social and economic change, you're very
>>> vulnerable
>>> to getting shot down.
>>>
>>> It's also a very privileged position. You're just out there,
>>> and it
>>> feels
>>> like an 'Oh shit!' moment. All the time.
>>>
>>> Then there's that damned consensus-making. I mean it's like
>>> moving an
>>> Army.
>>> The whole Army's on the move, and the direction is set. And
>>> you're either
>>> part of it, or you're not.
>>>
>>> Secondary Integrity is like being in the Army. It's the
>>> integrity of a
>>> global enterprise, of historical change, of being on the Long
>>> March of
>>> Care.
>>> And sometimes your Primary Integrity feels like screaming, 'Hey,
>>> wait a
>>> minute!' or 'I didn't vote for that!'
>>>
>>> But finally your Primary Integrity gets expended--fizzled, if you
>>> will--like air rushing out of a balloon. That's just the way it
>>> is. And
>>> when
>>> your fizzle is done, either your expenditure has participated in
>>> a great
>>> moment of bending history, or you've maybe done something else.
>>>
>>> If we're lucky (and blessed) we may get to participate in a great
>>> historical movement of Secondary Integrity. And in that
>>> expenditure our
>>> Primary Integrity gets busted flat and hung out to dry. But
>>> experiencing
>>> Secondary Integrity is being one's being in relation to a very
>>> mysterious
>>> reality. It's like dancing with the Mystery itself.
>>>
>>> Karl Rove, on the other hand, got to dance with a President.
>>>
>>> Marshall Jones
>>>
>>> BTW, Randy, I also filmed the well in Bayad. The water was
>>> real. No
>>> slick
>>> tricks. No smoke and mirrors.
>>>
>>>
>>> R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> No disrespect intended for Marshall, but his reasoning
>>> regarding the
>>> well
>>> in Maliwada makes him a prime candidate to be Karl Rove's
>>> successor. I
>>> too
>>> was a part of the "sell the well" activity, in my case the well
>>> in Bayad,
>>> not
>>> Maliwada. The practical problem with that is, in the face of
>>> short term
>>> gain, the funding sources sooner or later discover you have no
>>> integrity,
>>> i.e. you do not do what you say you will do, the funding dries
>>> up, and
>>> the
>>> reputation follows you around the world.
>>>
>>> But the moral problem is in the assumption that appears to be
>>> behind a
>>> group of elites believing they know what's good for everyone.
>>> "You don't
>>> have the ??? (big picture, vocational commitment, spiritual
>>> depth, or
>>> whatever) to know what's needed, but I do, and I'll tell you
>>> whatever I
>>> must
>>> to get you to do what I've decided you need to do. I'm a 'spirit
>>> person'
>>> and
>>> you're an ass, the 'donkey on the bridge,' an 'infidel.'" From
>>> this kind
>>> of
>>> "elitism," the approach becomes coercion and manipulation from a
>>> "subject" to
>>> an "object," an "I and it," rather than persuasion between two
>>> "subjects," an
>>> "I and Thou." (Buber) In time this infects your internal
>>> relations as
>>> well
>>> (elitism within the Order) and the whole system becomes corrupt
>>> as in
>>> Nazi
>>> Germany or what this country begins to look like after nearly
>>> eight years
>>> of
>>> Bush's thinking the American people don't have the sense (or
>>> whatever) to
>>> be
>>> trusted with the basic freedoms afforded under the Constitution.
>>>
>>> I think Marilyn is onto something when she compares primary and
>>> secondary
>>> integrity to Bonhoeffer's understanding of responsibility. For
>>> Bonhoeffer,
>>> responsibility was not a choice between to be free OR to be
>>> obedient, but
>>> to
>>> stand in the tension between the two. When you collapsed
>>> obedience and
>>> stood
>>> only on the freedom pole you were the "irresponsible genius."
>>>
>>> So with intergrity--it is not a choice between primary OR
>>> secondary,
>>> but to
>>> stand in the tension between the two. When you abandon primary
>>> integrity
>>> for
>>> a perverted version of secondary integrity, you become Bonhoeffer's
>>> "irresponsible genius." Maybe it plays out this way. If I have
>>> decided
>>> that
>>> digging a well in Bayad (or Maliwada) is the "necessary deed" and
>>> I can't
>>> persuade you to see it that way so that you provide the funding
>>> (primary
>>> integrity), then I don't become "dissuaded" by your argument and
>>> end my
>>> quest. Instead, if I believe it's really necessary, I go find
>>> someone
>>> else
>>> who will see it my way and commit to pay for it (secondary
>>> integrity.)
>>> History will decide if it was indeed necessary.
>>>
>>> I agree with Dick. I have pondered for a long time that we did
>>> often
>>> operate from a perverted understanding of secondary integrity and
>>> that it
>>> did
>>> hurt our effectiveness externally and our morale internally as an
>>> Order.
>>> I'm
>>> glad we're talking about it now. Perhaps some more "fools" will
>>> "rush
>>> in" to
>>> participate in this conversation.
>>>
>>> Randy Williams
>>>
>>> Marilyn R Crocker <marilyncrocker at juno.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> To: dialogue at wedgeblade.net
>>> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:07:58 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] {Disarmed} Re: Secondary Ethics
>>>
>>> Dick et al,
>>>
>>> My understanding of "secondary" integrity (as opposed to the
>>> rules,
>>> regs
>>> and legalisms that,for me, represent "primary" integrity) is that
>>> which
>>> guides one's actions in accord with the "necessary deed" -- the
>>> freely
>>> responsible action (cf Bonhoeffer) which I've never found is a
>>> simplistic
>>> cop
>>> out, but rather the result of complex, prayer filled discernment.
>>>
>>> I would be interested to know more about your thinking, Dick,
>>> that led
>>> you
>>> to conclude this was our movement's most serious perversion.
>>>
>>> With appreciation for the resources you bring to our "virtual"
>>> collegium
>>> room table,
>>>
>>> Marilyn
>>>
>>> Marilyn R. Crocker, Ed.D
>>> Crocker & Associates, Inc.
>>> 123 Sanborn Road
>>> West Newfield, ME 04095
>>> (207) 793-3711
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:23:34 EDT KroegerD at aol.com writes:
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is a link to the subject not from the spirit movement.
>>>
>>> http://ezinearticles.com/?A-Model-of-Ethics-for-Womens-
>>> Development&id=654252
>>>
>>> On golden pathways a google search delivered only a speech by
>>> Mathews
>>> in
>>> Korea. ( below )
>>>
>>> good luck with that!!
>>>
>>> In my words, secondary integrity means doing whatever is
>>> necessary,
>>> telling
>>> story ( even if it is totally untrue) in order to ger 'er done.
>>> In my
>>> opinion, it was our movement's most serious perversion, and
>>> ultimately
>>> did in
>>> the spirit movement as an organization.
>>>
>>> Dick Kroeger
>>>
>>> Global Priors Council e all-new MailScanner has detected a
>>> possible
>>> fraud attempt from "discover.aol.com" claiming to be AOL.com.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
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