[Oe List ...] Wal-Mart and the weapons of mass destruction

Herman Greene hfgreene at mindspring.com
Fri Apr 11 08:21:32 EDT 2008 

I am thinking about making an article out of this dialogue for the upcoming
issue of The Ecozoic. I'll seek permission from you individually to use your
inputs to this dialogue.

Herman

-----Original Message-----
From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Marianna Bailey
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 4:17 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Wal-Mart and the weapons of mass destruction

I think the point is. "Wal-Mart" is not a sustainable model for the future. 
We need to do some big picture thinking of how do we deal with global 
distribution of food. or world hunger. Seems like I remember us saying that 
every community has the possibility of feeding itself. I'm not sure if that 
is true today.
Marianna
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <sunwalker at comcast.net>
To: "OE at wedgeblade. net" <OE at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Wal-Mart and the weapons of mass destruction


Sitting, reading while on hold, & noticed you could substitute the final 
word "prices" in the phrase below with "for income in their job producing 
the product overseas" -- hmmmm. This is part of the messiness. And am I 
willing to be poorer once again? What if I don't come at any of it from 
either a blaming or a scarcity mindset?

"Kill WalMart and you will also have serious impact on many, many people who

live on the edge and rely on WalMart prices."

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Len Hockley <lenh at efn.org>

Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:03:52
To:Order Ecumenical Community  <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Wal-Mart and the weapons of mass destruction


Thanks Shelley,

 You are very right it is a complex issue. I would encourage you to toss in 
some items on the income side of the equation like suppose we increased the 
minimum wage to a point that the poor could pay the cost without WalMart. 
Sure, the cost for everything would rise, but the price is not important if 
we can all afford it.

 Len


 At 09:27 PM 4/9/2008 -0400, you wrote:
 I have found this thread very interesting. I confess that I have not 
studied this (WalMart) issue in any depth, and my knowledge of economics is 
very limited. But maybe that makes me even more qualified to 
contribute--because in one sense it's not an intellectual issue, it's a very

personal and challenging one. The reality is that these issues are complex 
... and they involve much more than ideals ... they involve the very 
practical matter of personal choice ... financial and otherwise. I LOVE 
WholeFoods, although there is not one in Bloomington nor even in 
Indianapolis, where my husband works. But if I shopped at Whole Foods, we 
would have to increase our food budget by about 30-50%. I do shop at our 
local natural foods coop for many things, but if I did all my shopping 
there, my budget would have to expand dramatically. Add to that the fact 
that shopping at my local pet store for food and litter for three cats costs

about 30% more than shopping at the "box stores" (PetSmart or PetCo). And if

we buy hardware from the local hardware store, we pay a significant premium 
over Lowe's or Menards. It is a constant balancing act for us ... and we 
make good incomes and can afford to make many choices that others can't 
make. We strive to buy local, to support local businesses, and to buy green 
and natural and healthy, etc., etc. The shoppers my father refers to at 
WalMart probably can't afford to shop at Bloomingfoods (our local coop) or 
spend extra to go to the local hardware store or pet shop. What is the 
answer for them? If WalMart weren't here, what would the implications be for

the shoppers who can't afford other options? (And if your local stores can 
compete with WalMart prices, let me know, because I just might move to your 
town! :)). I'm not arguing or disagreeing with anyone. But these issues 
aren't simple. Kill WalMart and you will also have serious impact on many, 
many people who live on the edge and rely on WalMart prices. I don't know 
the answers. I'm just glad that we'er here having the dialogue. Thanks for 
keeping me focused on important issues!

 Shelley Hahn



 On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 9:09 PM, Charles or Doris Hahn <cdhahn at flash.net 
<mailto:cdhahn at flash.net> > wrote:

Hi Terry,


A point well taken. Our farmer's market began last Saturday and will 
continue through October. We buy most of our fresh produce there because it 
is organic and mostly locally grown. We have a number of Amish selling in 
it. There are usually a couple of string bands, and one of these has clog 
dancers. We do pay a premium price for shopping there, but it is healthy and

fun.




----- Original Message ---- 
From: "McCabe, Terence W" <tm04 at txstate.edu <mailto:tm04 at txstate.edu> >
To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe at wedgeblade.net>

 >; Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe at wedgeblade.net>

 >
Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 10:21:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Wal-Mart and the weapons of mass destruction


Hello,
I find this conversation very interesting. Two things come to mind. A chain 
such as Whole Foods stores buy a significant percentage of produce and 
vegetables from their region. On the other hand, the market (as we see it 
here in the US) has a very short range vision. Is coal really cheaper than 
solar in the long run? Is broccoli from California cheaper than local area 
farmers in the long run? I spend higher prices at our local farmers' market 
because it is organic and more sustainable. I admit that I choose my local 
farmers based on the quality of their products and the charm with which they

market their produce. (By the way, the spinach in our garden is 
spectacular.)
Terry McCabe
----------------

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net>  on 
behalf of Carolyn Antenen
Sent: Tue 4/8/2008 5:08 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Wal-Mart and the weapons of mass destruction
Fascinating study. My entrepreneurial mind wonders:


Why did the chain store win over the customers of the original 3 stores?
What needs or wants did the 3 smaller stores not fulfill?
Were they innovative and responsive?
Did they take out too much capital and not reinvest in resources?
What did 1 chain store do better than 3 different local stores?


Cincinnati has local groceries that compete very well with Kroger:
through better quality products, better service, better displays,
better prepared food deli, and many other
creative approaches.


Whole Foods and Trader Joe's have gone to national scale because of
superior innovations over Kroger and Safeway.
Now the creative local stores have become the latest large chain.


Carolyn Antenen


On Apr 8, 2008, at 5:34 PM, Bill Bailey wrote:


> Ada, Oklahoma (1974) the Chamber of Commerce & the OKC house did a
> joint
> study of what happened to Ada's economy over the past 10 years. In
> 1964 Ada
> had three local owned grocery stores; one on the north side, one on
> the
> south side, and one in the town center. Each of the three stores
> was owned
> and operated by two local families. Each store provided summer and
> afternoon
> jobs for high school kids.
>
> In 1968 a large grocery store chain opened owned and operated by a
> firm
> headquarter in Dallas Texas. The managerial staff of the store
> lived in
> Oklahoma City and commuted to Ada on a weekly basis. The new store
> hired
> local workers from Ada at minimum wages, but none of the managerial
> staff
> participated in the economic, political, or cultural structures of
> Ada. The
> goods for the super market all came from the outside and the
> profits were
> sent out of state.
>
> By 1972 all three locally owned grocery stores had closed, but the
> super
> market still provided some jobs for after school and summer jobs
> for a few
> high school kids.
>
> The Chamber concluded that Ada had lost the economic, political and
> cultural
> benefits to the city of:
>
> 1. Six residential families,
> 2. A market for some locally produced food items,
> 3. A down turn in citizen's presence in town center, and
> 4. A small number of summer jobs for high school kids.
>
> This was just one simple story of what can happen when the chain (box)
> stores come to town. Instead of circulating locally, the money and
> business
> decisions no longer support the quality of life and economic growth
> of the
> local community.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bill Bailey
>
>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net> 
> [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net <mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net> ]
> On Behalf
> Of David Dunn
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 2:16 PM
> To: OE Community
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Wal-Mart and the weapons of mass
> destruction
>
> On 4/8/08 1:04 PM, "Marianna Bailey" wrote:
>
>> Let's not forget the economic principles that we used in human
>> development
>> projects.Money should circulate 5 times before it leaves a
>> community. When
>> Wal-Mart comes into a town small family owned businesses that have
>> been
> their
>> for several generations go out of business. The family owned business
>> circulated the money 5 times and use to pay living wages. Wal-Mart
>> pays
> low
>> wages and the money leaves the community everyday. What we gain
>> short term
> by
>> low prices does not reflect the long term consequences of our local
> economy.
>
> This is the story of Burna's hometown, Ironwood, MI--on the decline
> because
> of a whole system of factors, but Wal-Mart didn't help. The
> downtown has
> been dying for many years.
>
> David
>
> -- 
> David Dunn
> dmdunn1 at gmail.com <mailto:dmdunn1 at gmail.com>
> 720-314-5991
> Skype: dmirror
> www.mirrorcommunication.com <http://www.mirrorcommunication.com/>
>
> -- Please note new "GMAIL" address -- 
>
>
>
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Carolyn Antenen
cantenen at mac.com <mailto:cantenen at mac.com>








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