[Oe List ...] [Dialogue] To Adam, Jon, Frank and Margaret

[McCabe, Diann A]

Well said, George.
Thanks,
Diann McCabe

P.S.  Often one thinks, "but there's more that can be said" about a topic, and that notion contributes to the swirl of confusion, and insight.


On 9/24/08 10:53 AM, "George Holcombe" <geowanda at earthlink.net> wrote:

Not to butt in Marsha, but from where I sit so many identities are coming into consciousness of others and it is difficult not to believe your identity, especially if it is somewhat unconsciously held, as the only one or the right one.  I think we experience this in a keen way at the moment in the U.S. because of the election and the economic downturn, but so many identities around the world (and all our identities tend to be parochial) are bumping into others.  And sometimes we are surprised, not suspecting they existed.  I know my "right wing," fundamentalist friends are waking up to meet other identities than left-leaning liberals, and they are having harder times lumping everything into one pile, which can really be frustrating.  Especially when it's your own children.  Finding out that there are Israelies that oppose what Israel is doing, and groups of soldiers refusing certain missions, and parents of Israelies and Palestinians who have lost children to violence are meeting together to create the new, can be unbelievable.


George Holcombe
14900 Yellowleaf Tr.
Austin, TX 78728
Home: 512/252-2756
Mobile 512/294-5952
geowanda at earthlink.net



On Sep 24, 2008, at 9:10 AM, Marsha Hahn wrote:

Interesting.  I wasn't quite sure how you were thinking of the "identity conflict" in the US.  Could you elaborate a little more?

 Marsha

--- On Wed, 9/24/08, James Wiegel <jfwiegel at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: James Wiegel <jfwiegel at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] To Adam, Jon, Frank and Margaret
To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>, "Colleague Dialogue" <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 8:07 AM


  Great statement, George.

 I just got back from 10 days working to integrate ToP methods with 2 approaches to Conflict Transformation, one being used in Sri Lanka currently and the other which has been used in Israel and also Cincinnati.

 The intent is to develop an approach to engaging in Identity conflicts (where the deep insecurity goes way down in people and groups) and especially application in the Israeli - Palestinian conflict.  We had Germans, Israelis, Palestinians.  We had someone from Muldova and someone who got started in this in Belfast.  There was also someone there from Jordan.  Given these are all people who are in favor of a participatory approach, the conversations were edgy all the time.

 Toward the end of the pilot, when participants were working on implementing actions, one of the groups came up with reframing the program that takes people on trips to Poland to visit Auswicz and reflect on how "never again" applies today.  That jarred me into thinking that our movement, as well, came out of WWII -- the realization that most of us, as human beings just weren't well prepared for the kind of complexity and confrontation with the other that we were being driven into.  I remembered the seminary paper by JWM on his experience in the Pacific (some of that is in Brother Joe)

 and now this conversation about the US -- the Germans in the restaurants where we ate would ask about the election and about the bail out -- and it got me wondering about this deep identity conflict that is also in the USA or is it many identity conflicts?

401 North Beverly Way
Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
 +1 623-936-8671  <skype:+16239368671?origin=IETB>
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One great, strong, unselfish soul in every community could actually redeem the world. Elbert Hubbard

--- On Wed, 9/24/08, George Holcombe <geowanda at earthlink.net> wrote:

From: George Holcombe <geowanda at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Dialogue] To Adam, Jon, Frank and Margaret
To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>, "ICA LIST SERVE" <dialogue at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 3:08 AM

 To Adam, the expression sh__ hitting the fan is the metaphor (I think) used in the article on the schism in the Episcopal family, no doubt indicating that the rupture and all that goes with it is just beginning to be felt.
 To Margaret and Jon.....One of the great theological struggles has been the whole notion of righteousness.  Wesley and others speak of righteousness being from God and only "imputed" to humans, i.e., righteousness is not something we possess, but possesses us, or at least something we may seek.  Thus, we have self-righteousness, what we claim or assert for ourselves, our group, our theologies, politics, etc.  Generally speaking, we assign righteousness to someone in retrospect as a tribute to a quality of life, a gift or a historic accomplishment that saved something for the future, and not something we claim for ourselves.  We are in a time of extremely careless theology, if not really bad theology by the general society as well as the major religions.

 We are terribly anxious about the future.  There is this general notion that the future is ours for the taking; in fact,  we must take it, or someone else will take it from us, but it is not a matter of intention, invention, struggle, sacrifice and responsibility (Jon's gentleness, the power of loving, even your enemies), it is a matter of grasping it, much like taking a product off the shelf and putting it in your basket.  There is the feeling abroad that we are "righteous" by virtue of our beliefs, our religion, politics, our experience, where we live, just being me, etc.  And when our "righteousness" does not bring all it was supposed to, we can really get upset, especially with those we don't think are "righteous."  The nastiness Margaret experienced may be mild in comparison to what the U.S. has set itself up for, not only in this election, or economic downturn, but the way this nation has come to think about itself and the world.

 To Frank, I and several of us older folks in the Order were children of the depression (at least the tail end of it for me, right before WWII).  It was a scary time in many ways, my Dad did not always have a job, my mother worked as a waitress, which paid little.  People coming through town looking for work often slept in our house or apartment (we moved around a lot).  Sometimes we had a car, sometimes not.  Extended families (probably the last of it in the U.S.) stuck together.  As Joe Mathews used to say, we ate a lot of "gravy" (I think he used another word) on our bread or potatoes.  Our family was fortunate in that we had kin "on the farm" and when it got too bad in the city we could live on the farm (there was always plenty of food there) until Dad found his next job.  Most of the U.S. now living did not experience the depression, but rather the explosion of materialism that began in the late 40's, however, the stories of the depression may strike much more fear in us, and move the financial sector and the government to act out of their fears more than their common sense.

 The Order has prepared us for what is before us in more ways than we can imagine.


   George Holcombe
 14900 Yellowleaf Tr.
 Austin, TX 78728
 Home:  512/252-2756  <skype:+15122522756?origin=IETB>
 Mobile  512/294-5952  <skype:+15122945952?origin=IETB>
 geowanda at earthlink.net


  On Sep 24, 2008, at 12:45 AM, jonzondo at juno.com wrote:


those that cling to fear divide and divide and break off from the group... creating smaller and smaller little islands of righteousness... even while the group they break off from often invites them into dialog and discussion... inviting them into the future, into respect for the grand diversity.

Is this the 100... 200 .... year plan for those who cling to black and white thinking?

There is a thought that gentleness and kindness can gently call out the divine soulful loving one within many who live in fear.  I have seen it.  It does happen.  Change happens.  Paradigms shift.

Where is my own righteousness keeping me from viewing something through the glasses of love?

Walk in Beauty,
Jon Mark Elizondo
____________________________________________________________
Bills adding up? Click here for free information on payday loans.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m3aOnTapgoLXa6J1iiDyNxmLikN5CQlpnrv06FK4l5HpBPb/ How can a schism hit a fan...?

At 19:07 23/09/2008, you wrote:

Jefferts Schori removes Pittsburgh bishop from office
Duncan led effort to take diocese out of Episcopal Church

By Mary Frances Schjonberg

September 22, 2008 [Episcopal News Service] Robert Duncan has been
given a formal sentence of deposition from the ordained ministry of
the Episcopal Church and has been removed as the bishop of the Diocese
of Pittsburgh.

Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori signed Duncan's sentence on
September 19, the day after the House of Bishops agreed by a vote of
88-35 to authorize the action. Bishop Richard S.O. Chang, vice
president of the house, and Bishop Kenneth Price, the secretary, also
signed as witnesses to the sentence.

The sentence and an accompanying letter from Jefferts Schori to Duncan
were sent to Pittsburgh diocesan offices on September 22 and later
released to the public.

The Rev. Dr. Charles Robertson, canon to the Presiding Bishop, told
ENS that the Presiding Bishop signed the deposition before leaving for
meetings with the Church of Sweden directly from the House of Bishops,
"but she chose not to release it out of consideration for Duncan until
he had been notified, which was done via his office [September 22]."

In the sentence Jefferts Schori declares that "from and after 12:01
a.m., Saturday, 20 September, 2008, Bishop Duncan shall be deprived of
the right to exercise the gifts and spiritual authority of God's word
and sacraments conferred at ordination in this Church and further
declare[s] that all ecclesiastical and related secular offices held by
Bishop Duncan shall be terminated and vacated at that time."

Robertson said that diocesan staff were contacted September 22 and
told that the sentence of deposition was on its way to their offices.
Robertson said he did not know if Duncan was aware of the effective
date of the deposition before he received the sentence.

The diocesan Standing Committee, now the ecclesiastical authority in
the diocese, will meet September 23 in a regularly scheduled
gathering, the Rev. David Wilson, committee president, told ENS.
Wilson said that Standing Committee members would discuss the details
of the diocesan convention, scheduled for October 4, at which the
deputies will be asked to approve resolutions (see resolutions one,
two and three here) re-aligning the diocese with the Anglican Province
of the Southern Cone of southern South America.

A September 18 news release posted on the diocese's website said that
"Bishop Duncan's own continuing status as a bishop in The Anglican
Communion has been secured by the Province of the Southern Cone" and
quoted Southern Cone Primate Gregory Venables as saying that
"effectively immediately" Duncan was a member of that House of Bishops.

"Neither the Presiding Bishop nor the House of Bishops of the
Episcopal Church has any further jurisdiction over his ministry,"
Venables claimed.

In a September 18 statement issued after the House of Bishops vote,
the Pittsburgh Standing Committee said that Duncan would "continue to
support the work of our diocese under the terms of his administrative
employment agreement and within the bounds of his deposition,
providing many of the services that he previously performed for the
diocese."

Meanwhile, a group called "Across the Aisle" issued a statement
September 22 saying that Jefferts Schori's office had informed the
group of the sentence of deposition via a phone call that afternoon.
"The direct communication is further evidence of the Presiding
Bishop's recognition that Across the Aisle is the primary group
working to maintain a diocese in Pittsburgh that is part of the
Episcopal Church, even if the existing diocese votes at its upcoming
convention to realign with an Anglican province in South America," the
statement said in part.

The Presiding Bishop had singled out the group during her September 19
remarks to reporters after the end of the House of Bishops meeting,
calling it "a remarkable example of cooperation across a variety of
differences of opinion."

Jefferts Schori said during the news conference that the Episcopal
Church would support efforts to reorganize the diocese should
delegates vote for re-alignment.

"The Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh will not go away, even if their
convention makes a canonically inappropriate vote to secede" from The
Episcopal Church (TEC), she said during the news conference.

Robertson told ENS September 22 that "the Presiding Bishop's office is
communicating regularly with a group of leaders in the Diocese of
Pittsburgh who, despite holding diverse opinions and positions, are
committed to remaining in the Episcopal Church."

In the letter to Duncan which accompanied the sentence, Jefferts
Schori noted "the prayerful and thoughtful atmosphere of the
discussions" leading up to the bishops' authorization of the deposition.

"In their deliberations at the special session last week, the House of
Bishops was clear that this action is based on Robert Duncan's actions
and statements to facilitate the departure of congregations out of the
Episcopal Church," Robertson told ENS. "This was not based on Robert
Duncan's theological position." Duncan has taken a conservative stance
on such issues as church attitudes toward homosexuality.

The Title IV Review Committee had certified in December that Duncan
had abandoned the communion of the Episcopal Church under the terms of
Canon IV.9.1 "by an open renunciation of the Doctrine, Discipline, or
Worship of this Church."

The Presiding Bishop moved to inhibit Duncan (restrict his episcopal
acts) during the time between the certification and the time she
brought the matter to a meeting of the house. However, the House's
three senior bishops could not agree unanimously with Jefferts
Schori's request. The canon on abandonment does not call for a formal
trial, as do the disciplinary canons.

John H. Lewis, Duncan's attorney, said in a September 18 statement
that was posted on the diocese's website September 22, that Duncan
"was denied his fundamental right -- the right to a church trial ...
because the Presiding Bishop believes that his 'deposition' will
assist her in her desire to seize the property of the Diocese of
Pittsburgh."

-- The Rev. Mary Frances Schjonberg is Episcopal Life Media
correspondent for Episcopal Church governance, structure, and trends,
as well as news of the dioceses of Province II. She is based in
Neptune, New Jersey, and New York City

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