[Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness

Wed Apr 29 18:28:10 EDT 2009

I like Bill, but I find his "just stuff it" approach, part of the internal
screwed-upness or is it upedness.

  _____  

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of KarenBueno at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:24 PM
To: oe at wedgeblade.net
Subject: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness

Good words, Bill.  You got it.

Karen (Wright) Bueno

In a message dated 4/29/2009 1:42:03 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
pvida at whc.net writes:

Tim's comment reminds me why I've found 'total depravity' to be such a
comforting perspective!  Internal screwed-up-ness is a given in any human
institution (which we discussed in the HRN section on the church) but had a
hard time sorting through in terms of the Order as a human institution.  I
found it interesting that the 'need to be pure' that glossed over many
issues in the institutional church - covering up scandal, etc. - has its
counterpart in our own realities as well.  The flip side of that - being
offended and hurt that we've been treated in ways we consider unfair -
focuses us on 'shoulda-been' instead of taking the hit, grieving, and
figuring out how to care next.  At least for me.

Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Ave
El Paso, TX 79905
(915) 533-7057 x 207
(915) 490-6148 mobile
(915) 533-7158 fax
bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org

-----Original Message-----
From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Tim Wegner
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 8:23 PM
To: dialogue at wedgeblade.net; oe at wedgeblade.net
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Order annuity (and R. Niebuhr)

This is an intriguing thread. I would like to relate our discussion 
here to the theology of Reinhold Niebuhr (read on).

(By the way, the thread has diverged on the two lists, so if you are 
just on one list, you haven't seen all the messages.)

Susan and I didn't ever "leave the order", at least in terms of 
leaving the community. We did change our financial covenant by ending 
the contribution of my entire salary out of concern that some 
community members had become dependent and had lost the capacity to 
support themselves. We didn't feel it was ethical to allow the 
dysfunctional dependency to continue. This decision meant (in some 
people's minds) that we had left, so we didn't receive any annuity 
money. And in any case, shortly after we changed our financial 
relationship, the centralized structures of the order were disbanded.

I have been preparing a two-part adult class on Obama and Reihhold 
Niebuhr for my church, based on the wonderful "Speaking of Faith" 
program on NPR. See:
http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/2009/obamas-
theologian/

The way-too-simple synopsis is that Niebuhr believed that we live 
caught in a tension between, on the one hand, the need to respond to 
innocent suffering, and on the other hand, our flawed human nature 
which renders our well-meaning attempts open to the risk of counter 
productiveness because of our flawed nature. This tension plays out 
at the individual level, but Niebuhr's concern was more the large 
stage on which American power is excercised.

Mary Hampton is visiting us this weekend as she is attending an 
Occupational Therapy conference, and we have had some conversations 
about this. I connected this "order annuity" discussion with the 
themes of the Niebuhr study I am preparing, and found it cast some 
interesting light. The Order certainly responded to innocent 
suffering, but was certainly open to a Niebuhrian critique of 
ignoring our own human flaws. Hence we experienced issues like sexual 
abuse, unhealthy economic dependency, and so on (make your own list). 

I would be curious to know if Niebuhr's thought played any role in 
the early days of the Order, or was intentionally rejected in favor 
of the four theologians chosen for RS-1.

Susan and I should add that we are grateful for everything that has 
happened and is happening in our lives including our experience with 
the Order. We certainly had some wild adventures, and seem to have 
missed some of the worst problems. This appreciation doesn't prevent 
me from looking at our community with Nieburian eyeglasses and seeing 
a naively optimistic liberalism.

Tim

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