[Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness

Thu Apr 30 13:22:35 EDT 2009

Thank you, Doris, for this profound reminder of our reality.  I also appreciated both of Herman's reflections.  It is really tricky to offer others what you could not offer before, even if it means creating hurt in a long-term relationship.  This week the lectionary is the "good shepherd."  My roots on the farm rise at moments like this and I think of the "leadership" required.  There is such a huge difference between the "shepherd" able to lead his flock and the one compelled to drive his flock, and let me tell you there are times when I would like to get out a whip to drive my congregation just one little step toward the future.  Equally, there are times when I would just like to let them take me wherever in the hope that I might be appreciated just a little.  I am not saying that I have come up with any wisdom in dealing with these issues and I am probably at least myopic in terms of recognizing my own perversions.  I do know that each week as I walk to the front of the church I pause for just a moment before the altar and answer 'yes and no' or 'no and yes.'

In eternal gratitude to this community, Margaret
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Charles or Doris Hahn 
  To: Order Ecumenical Community 
  Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:52 AM
  Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness

  Thank you much for this reflection, Herman. Your first reaction was important, too, but this one certainly helps to round it out. Some folks have been held accountable, but sometimes they are perverts who seem to be beyond accountability, just as there are drunks who cannot be helped by AA. Our world is full of them, and though we may know a lot more about such perversions than we did at an earlier age/time, wisdom about dealing with the issues is not so easy. 

  I realize that there is a whole range of hurts which would probably not fit the category of "perversion." I also know that most of us caused some of the pain, either knowingly or unknowingly. That is one reason we went to Daily Office--confession, praise, dedication (with all the sub-themes). We also changed our policies and stance as we went along, but none of that changed the need for "daily office." Charles and I have been married for 54 years and still we inflict hurt one one another. I can follow and appreciate the theologians who talk about "original blessing," and that point needs to be emphasized, or I can work at meditation and serenity; but when I look into the depths of my own life, humiliation abounds, as do grace and peace.

  Doris Hahn

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  From: Herman Greene <hfgreene at mindspring.com>
  To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>
  Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 8:06:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness

  My apologies to Bill and all for my reactive email last evening. Some day I will have to take the time to write on my experience with the flawed but brilliant project we undertook and are still undertaking in our own ways. A baseline reflection is that we cared for the world but not ourselves—to some extent we sacrificed ourselves for a greater good and in other ways we failed to live up to standards that we would have wanted for others. And a second baseline is that by doing this we accomplished amazing things.

  My own reflections recently have been on what I learned that is still valuable and how that can be passed on.

  I don’t look back at my own experience with the order as suffering, though there were difficulties . . . many of my own making. I know, however, that there are those who did suffer, especially the children, and I would be inclined to open as much space as they need to remember, work through, process, grieve. I am not sure what accountability means or who should be held to account where there was innocent suffering. In AA there are traditions of taking inventory and making amends. Sometimes amends can’t be made directly because the person to whom the amend is owed is dead or direct amends would do more harm than good. Other times amends can and should be made directly. Then as HR Richard says after seeing the judgment and being the first to repent, there is leading in the resurrection, which is, with the help of the grace of God, changing and offering to others what one could not before. This is no doubt what Bill is saying—how to care next.

  Herman

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  From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of KarenBueno at aol.com
  Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:24 PM
  To: oe at wedgeblade.net
  Subject: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness

  Good words, Bill.  You got it.

  Karen (Wright) Bueno

  In a message dated 4/29/2009 1:42:03 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, pvida at whc.net writes:

    Tim's comment reminds me why I've found 'total depravity' to be such a
    comforting perspective!  Internal screwed-up-ness is a given in any human
    institution (which we discussed in the HRN section on the church) but had a
    hard time sorting through in terms of the Order as a human institution.  I
    found it interesting that the 'need to be pure' that glossed over many
    issues in the institutional church - covering up scandal, etc. - has its
    counterpart in our own realities as well.  The flip side of that - being
    offended and hurt that we've been treated in ways we consider unfair -
    focuses us on 'shoulda-been' instead of taking the hit, grieving, and
    figuring out how to care next.  At least for me.

    Bill Schlesinger
    Project Vida
    3607 Rivera Ave
    El Paso , TX 79905
    (915) 533-7057 x 207
    (915) 490-6148 mobile
    (915) 533-7158 fax
    bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org

    -----Original Message-----
    From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
    Of Tim Wegner
    Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 8:23 PM
    To: dialogue at wedgeblade.net; oe at wedgeblade.net
    Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] [Dialogue] Order annuity (and R. Niebuhr)

    This is an intriguing thread. I would like to relate our discussion 
    here to the theology of Reinhold Niebuhr (read on).

    (By the way, the thread has diverged on the two lists, so if you are 
    just on one list, you haven't seen all the messages.)

    Susan and I didn't ever "leave the order", at least in terms of 
    leaving the community. We did change our financial covenant by ending 
    the contribution of my entire salary out of concern that some 
    community members had become dependent and had lost the capacity to 
    support themselves. We didn't feel it was ethical to allow the 
    dysfunctional dependency to continue. This decision meant (in some 
    people's minds) that we had left, so we didn't receive any annuity 
    money. And in any case, shortly after we changed our financial 
    relationship, the centralized structures of the order were disbanded.

    I have been preparing a two-part adult class on Obama and Reihhold 
    Niebuhr for my church, based on the wonderful "Speaking of Faith" 
    program on NPR. See:
    http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/2009/obamas-
    theologian/

    The way-too-simple synopsis is that Niebuhr believed that we live 
    caught in a tension between, on the one hand, the need to respond to 
    innocent suffering, and on the other hand, our flawed human nature 
    which renders our well-meaning attempts open to the risk of counter 
    productiveness because of our flawed nature. This tension plays out 
    at the individual level, but Niebuhr's concern was more the large 
    stage on which American power is excercised.

    Mary Hampton is visiting us this weekend as she is attending an 
    Occupational Therapy conference, and we have had some conversations 
    about this. I connected this "order annuity" discussion with the 
    themes of the Niebuhr study I am preparing, and found it cast some 
    interesting light. The Order certainly responded to innocent 
    suffering, but was certainly open to a Niebuhrian critique of 
    ignoring our own human flaws. Hence we experienced issues like sexual 
    abuse, unhealthy economic dependency, and so on (make your own list). 

    I would be curious to know if Niebuhr's thought played any role in 
    the early days of the Order, or was intentionally rejected in favor 
    of the four theologians chosen for RS-1.

    Susan and I should add that we are grateful for everything that has 
    happened and is happening in our lives including our experience with 
    the Order. We certainly had some wild adventures, and seem to have 
    missed some of the worst problems. This appreciation doesn't prevent 
    me from looking at our community with Nieburian eyeglasses and seeing 
    a naively optimistic liberalism.

    Tim

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