[Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people

Sat Aug 29 16:56:38 CDT 2009

Yea Jim - a voice of broadened reason sounds in the air of this conversation.  How I wish more people could climb out of their ideologies and think about other people who really are their neighbors - including the guy who bellowed at me on a street corner to give him two quarters for the bus and when I did yelled louder that he needed a dollar instead.  (That didn't happen - the light turned green and I fled.)  I hope he caught a bus eventually, but he is also my neighbor, and appeared to be homeless in a very wealthy country, called the United States of America when last I looked.

Love to you and Alice,  Clare W.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jim Baumbach 
  To: Order Ecumenical Community 
  Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 2:51 PM
  Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people

  This kind of conversation always seems to lead to extremes.  And all I can think of is that conservatives live in a totally different universe.  They seem to be so worried about Socialism when most of their existence in the US is socialistic.  Can you imagine what our highway system across this country would be like if it was left in the hands of private corporations?  Government (federal, state or local) seems to be doing a pretty good job there.  Of course it would also be a very exciting time if the laws governing traffic were created by private enterprise.  When we have a police emergency I pray to God no Black mercenary thugs come to my house and shoot up all my neighbors.  Our cops on on the public payroll and that seems to work very well.  Of course that is socialism!  And when there is a fire to put out nearby, I am happy the firefighters hired by our socialistic government are there to control things.  And the water they use comes from the local socialist government sources free to whomever needs a drink.  Fortunately, we don't have to worry about the poor getting water.  And who sets the standards for the water quality through out our nation?  Not the private sector!  And what about sewage?  Hmm, dirty rotten socialists at it again.  Clean water, clean air, and speaking about air, who keeps all those planes from crashing into each other?  Who sets the standards?  Who enforces the standards?  And those god-awful public schools and universities is this socialism or what?  And I would caution conservatives not to go into public libraries, parks, public buildings because they all smack of the "S" word.  And the construction standards used to keep all of our buildings from collapsing on our heads, who sets and enforces those standards?  Don't forget that the US has it share of natural disasters that the government is expected to help protect us from and clean up afterwards.  So whose afraid of the socialist boogeyperson?  

  And why should adequate, affordable health care be denied to anyone?

  Jim Baumbach

  Marsha Hahn wrote: 
    Susan and all,

    What a stimulating conversation!  Thank you, Marshall, for getting it started.  To respond to Susan, the American government is a government "of the people."  That's one of our core principles.  That means I'm the government, and so are you.  I am REALLY trying to figure out how to play a constructive role as an individual citizen, responsible for my government, in this health care debate.

    It is precisely from the place of kindness and generosity, which you mention below, that I wish to make decent health care available to my fellow human beings - and to which I, out of kindness and generosity, would gladly contribute to make happen.  We need to reclaim our ownership of our government - it is US.

    My thoughts.

    Marsha

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    From: Susan Fertig <susan at gmdtech.com>
    To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>
    Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:49:33 PM
    Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people

    Jack and Paul, First of all, I appreciate your taking my question seriously and not just dismissing it as uncaring or unthinking.

    Next, I think what has always distinguished people of successful community is that they CHOOSE to care for each other.  Not that there is a governing body (the Soviet?) requiring it and thereby diminishing to nothing the human spirit.

    Finally, I do not believe that anyone or any government "owes" me medical care, or food, or a home, or a car, or any of the things that everyone seems to take for granted. If I am unable to provide those things for myself, then I truly do hope there will be kind and generous people who will help me.  But not, please God, my government.

    I have been so dismayed by our pell mell helter skelter descent into socialism within an oh-so-short handful of months that I am no longer a conservative.  I have lost all balance I ever had and have fallen right over into libertarianism (not, of course, the LaRouche style version).  

    Susan

    Susan Fertig-Dykes
    tel: (703) 751-5956

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    From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Jack Gilles
    Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:09 PM
    To: Order Ecumenical Community
    Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people

    Dear Susan, 

    I too think this is a question that needs a thoughtful answer.  I am grateful for Paul's response as it is, as it should be, from the heart which is the means by which this community dialogues.

    I remember JWM reminding us that first and foremost we were born into humanity, not family, community or nation.  Therefore, it is the humanity of us all that we stand before as equals, and with a mutual responsibility.  That said, each of us has a responsibility for how that life is lived and cared for.  We bare the responsibility for our actions, including those that lead to consequences of illness and poor well-being.  But there are issues of wellness that are beyond our individual control, be those of birth, accident or social circumstances.  For these we need to ask, whom will be responsible for the healing and care?  In that question it is clear that our (USA) social structures and consciousness is in need of strengthening, including our understanding of death.

    We all know of the issues of families not willing to care for, nor honor the dignity and role of elders in their lives.  We have developed vast industries to hide this responsibility, to render the elders subservient to youth and deny a legitimate profound role in our collective community.  We also know that we have lost community in and through which care needs to be acted out.  We have seen so many fine examples of community care including many that have financial structural designs that seem to work well.  In a "perfect world" perhaps this model of caring community with equitable structures would be what we need to build.  I would share with what I imagine is your concern that once a "right" is designated at such a large level as the US economy and society things not only get complicated and often too expensive, but it keeps us from facing the more ontological needs of building our local communities and our individual responsibilities for ourselves and our neighbors.   It hinders the necessary dialogue on what care should we collectively render (i.e. unlimited end of life treatments at all costs, who gets transplants etc.).   We have a very profound dialogue that needs to occur around these issues that isn't taking place, at least at a national level.  In other words, the issue of "the right of care for all" when implied at the national level, is not dealing with the contradictions and therefore, I believe, will not lead to the solutions we need to develop.  Without elaboration, we who live in the Litibu community of Mexico are presently facing such community care issues.

    That said, it remains to say which present options being discussed will take us towards our goal of all of us caring for all in a way that brings us into full mutual love and responsibility.  I am not totally clear as to which model does that and what model keeps us further away from the real contradictions of our common good.

    Grace & Peace,

    Jack

    On Aug 29, 2009, at 2:46 AM, PSchrijnen at aol.com wrote:

      Why? What a great question, Susan.

      I was on top of Table Mountain yesterday. The cable car and facilities on top of the mountain were refurbished about 10 years ago, and Mandela opened it: declaring it SA's gift to the earth. He declared it so. An act of generosity.  Of hope. And most people on top of the mountain were South Africans, most of them black, but there were accents and shades of all colours of the rainbow. 

      So, thanks Susan, for letting me ponder that question.

      By the way, the top of Table Mountain is sacred space. There is an awe in the air. People whisper thoughtfully, aware of the presence of the mystery. I wept at times in the presence of this perspective on the beautiful earth on which I live. 

      Paul
      <table%20mountain.JPG>

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