[Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people
James Wiegel
jfwiegel at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 30 07:05:45 CDT 2009
Wasn't there a talk or something called, "The Liberal Heresy". I think JWM worked on it . . . anyone have a copy?
Part of my struggle in all this has to do with the assumption that "national governments" are the key (remember Chardin, "The Age of Nations is Past" . . .) and that there is a thin line from progressive or liberal to conservative or libertarian and any answer has to be somewhere on that line . . . reminds me of the book "Flatland" where the hero was a dot living in a 2 dimensional world . . .
Jim
Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a pun. G. K. Chesterton
Jim Wiegel
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
+1 623-936-8671 +1 623-363-3277
jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
--- On Sat, 8/29/09, Clare Whitney <cla9ken8 at ecentral.com> wrote:
From: Clare Whitney <cla9ken8 at ecentral.com>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people
To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 2:56 PM
Yea Jim - a voice of broadened reason sounds in the
air of this conversation. How I wish more people could climb out of their
ideologies and think about other people who really are their neighbors -
including the guy who bellowed at me on a street corner to give him two quarters
for the bus and when I did yelled louder that he needed a dollar instead.
(That didn't happen - the light turned green and I fled.) I hope he caught
a bus eventually, but he is also my neighbor, and appeared to be homeless in a
very wealthy country, called the United States of America when last I
looked.
Love to you and Alice, Clare W.
----- Original Message -----
From:
Jim Baumbach
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 2:51
PM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth
belongs to all the people
This kind of conversation always seems to lead to
extremes. And all I can think of is that conservatives live in a totally
different universe. They seem to be so worried about Socialism when most
of their existence in the US is socialistic. Can you imagine what our
highway system across this country would be like if it was left in the hands
of private corporations? Government (federal, state or local) seems to
be doing a pretty good job there. Of course it would also be a very
exciting time if the laws governing traffic were created by private
enterprise. When we have a police emergency I pray to God no Black
mercenary thugs come to my house and shoot up all my neighbors. Our cops
on on the public payroll and that seems to work very well. Of course
that is socialism! And when there is a fire to put out nearby, I am
happy the firefighters hired by our socialistic government are there to
control things. And the water they use comes from the local socialist
government sources free to whomever needs a drink. Fortunately, we don't
have to worry about the poor getting water. And who sets the standards
for the water quality through out our nation? Not the private
sector! And what about sewage? Hmm, dirty rotten socialists at it
again. Clean water, clean air, and speaking about air, who keeps all
those planes from crashing into each other? Who sets the
standards? Who enforces the standards? And those god-awful public
schools and universities is this socialism or what? And I would caution
conservatives not to go into public libraries, parks, public buildings because
they all smack of the "S" word. And the construction standards used to
keep all of our buildings from collapsing on our heads, who sets and enforces
those standards? Don't forget that the US has it share of natural
disasters that the government is expected to help protect us from and clean up
afterwards. So whose afraid of the socialist boogeyperson?
And why should adequate, affordable health care be denied to
anyone?
Jim Baumbach
Marsha Hahn wrote:
#yiv759816105 DIV {
MARGIN:0px;}
Susan and all,
What a stimulating conversation! Thank you, Marshall, for getting
it started. To respond to Susan, the American government is a
government "of the people." That's one of our core principles.
That means I'm the government, and so are you. I am REALLY trying to
figure out how to play a constructive role as an individual citizen,
responsible for my government, in this health care debate.
It is precisely from the place of kindness and generosity, which you
mention below, that I wish to make decent health care available to my fellow
human beings - and to which I, out of kindness and generosity, would gladly
contribute to make happen. We need to reclaim our ownership of our
government - it is US.
My thoughts.
Marsha
From: Susan Fertig <susan at gmdtech.com>
To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009
12:49:33 PM
Subject: Re:
[Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people
Jack and Paul, First of all, I appreciate your taking
my question seriously and not just dismissing it as uncaring or
unthinking.
Next, I think what has always distinguished people of
successful community is that they CHOOSE to care for each other. Not
that there is a governing body (the Soviet?) requiring it and thereby
diminishing to nothing the human spirit.
Finally, I do not believe that anyone or any
government "owes" me medical care, or food, or a home, or a car, or any
of the things that everyone seems to take for granted. If I am unable to
provide those things for myself, then I truly do hope there will be kind and
generous people who will help me. But not, please God, my
government.
I have been so dismayed by our pell mell helter skelter
descent into socialism within an oh-so-short handful of months that I am no
longer a conservative. I have lost all balance I ever had and have
fallen right over into libertarianism (not, of course, the LaRouche style
version).
Susan
Susan Fertig-Dykes
tel:
(703) 751-5956
From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net]
On Behalf Of Jack Gilles
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009
12:09 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe
List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people
Dear
Susan,
I too think this is a question that needs a thoughtful answer. I
am grateful for Paul's response as it is, as it should be, from the heart
which is the means by which this community dialogues.
I remember JWM reminding us that first and foremost we were born into
humanity, not family, community or nation. Therefore, it is the
humanity of us all that we stand before as equals, and with a mutual
responsibility. That said, each of us has a responsibility for how
that life is lived and cared for. We bare the responsibility for our
actions, including those that lead to consequences of illness and poor
well-being. But there are issues of wellness that are beyond our
individual control, be those of birth, accident or social circumstances.
For these we need to ask, whom will be responsible for the healing and
care? In that question it is clear that our (USA) social structures
and consciousness is in need of strengthening, including our understanding
of death.
We all know of the issues of families not willing to care for, nor
honor the dignity and role of elders in their lives. We have developed
vast industries to hide this responsibility, to render the elders
subservient to youth and deny a legitimate profound role in our collective
community. We also know that we have lost community in and through
which care needs to be acted out. We have seen so many fine examples
of community care including many that have financial structural designs that
seem to work well. In a "perfect world" perhaps this model of caring
community with equitable structures would be what we need to build. I
would share with what I imagine is your concern that once a "right" is
designated at such a large level as the US economy and society things not
only get complicated and often too expensive, but it keeps us from facing
the more ontological needs of building our local communities and our
individual responsibilities for ourselves and our neighbors. It
hinders the necessary dialogue on what care should we collectively render
(i.e. unlimited end of life treatments at all costs, who gets transplants
etc.). We have a very profound dialogue that needs to occur around
these issues that isn't taking place, at least at a national level. In
other words, the issue of "the right of care for all" when implied at the
national level, is not dealing with the contradictions and therefore, I
believe, will not lead to the solutions we need to develop. Without
elaboration, we who live in the Litibu community of Mexico are presently
facing such community care issues.
That said, it remains to say which present options being discussed will
take us towards our goal of all of us caring for all in a way that brings us
into full mutual love and responsibility. I am not totally clear as to
which model does that and what model keeps us further away from the real
contradictions of our common good.
Grace & Peace,
Jack
On Aug 29, 2009, at 2:46 AM, PSchrijnen at aol.com wrote:
Why? What a great question, Susan.
I was on top of Table Mountain yesterday. The cable car and
facilities on top of the mountain were refurbished about 10 years ago, and
Mandela opened it: declaring it SA's gift to the earth. He declared it so.
An act of generosity. Of hope. And most people on top of the
mountain were South Africans, most of them black, but there were accents
and shades of all colours of the rainbow.
So, thanks Susan, for letting me ponder that question.
By the way, the top of Table Mountain is sacred space. There is an
awe in the air. People whisper thoughtfully, aware of the presence of the
mystery. I wept at times in the presence of this perspective on the
beautiful earth on which I live.
Paul
<table%20mountain.JPG>
_______________________________________________
OE
mailing list
OE at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________
OE mailing list
OE at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________
OE mailing
list
OE at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
_______________________________________________
OE mailing list
OE at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20090830/48740cf2/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the OE
mailing list