[Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people
Jim Baumbach
wtw0bl at new.rr.com
Sun Aug 30 07:43:48 CDT 2009
The great jester we refer to as the "Mystery" has condemned human beings
to be the Masters of Their Fates. No matter what label we place on each
other, it's up to us to do something about ourselves. As for me, I've
decided to leave the homo sapien specie and join that wonderful group of
dogs who are "Man's best friends." So whatever you do to each other, I
forgive you!!!
Jim Baumbach
James Wiegel wrote:
> Wasn't there a talk or something called, "The Liberal Heresy". I
> think JWM worked on it . . . anyone have a copy?
>
> Part of my struggle in all this has to do with the assumption that
> "national governments" are the key (remember Chardin, "The Age of
> Nations is Past" . . .) and that there is a thin line from progressive
> or liberal to conservative or libertarian and any answer has to be
> somewhere on that line . . . reminds me of the book "Flatland" where
> the hero was a dot living in a 2 dimensional world . . .
>
> Jim
>
> Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a pun. G. K. Chesterton
>
> Jim Wiegel
> 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
> +1 623-936-8671 +1 623-363-3277
> jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
>
> --- On *Sat, 8/29/09, Clare Whitney /<cla9ken8 at ecentral.com>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Clare Whitney <cla9ken8 at ecentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people
> To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
> Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 2:56 PM
>
> Yea Jim - a voice of broadened reason sounds in the air of this
> conversation. How I wish more people could climb out of their
> ideologies and think about other people who really are their
> neighbors - including the guy who bellowed at me on a street
> corner to give him two quarters for the bus and when I did yelled
> louder that he needed a dollar instead. (That didn't happen - the
> light turned green and I fled.) I hope he caught a bus
> eventually, but he is also my neighbor, and appeared to be
> homeless in a very wealthy country, called the United States of
> America when last I looked.
>
> Love to you and Alice, Clare W.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Jim Baumbach </mc/compose?to=wtw0bl at new.rr.com>
> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community
> </mc/compose?to=oe at wedgeblade.net>
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2009 2:51 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the
> people
>
> This kind of conversation always seems to lead to extremes.
> And all I can think of is that conservatives live in a totally
> different universe. They seem to be so worried about
> Socialism when most of their existence in the US is
> socialistic. Can you imagine what our highway system across
> this country would be like if it was left in the hands of
> private corporations? Government (federal, state or local)
> seems to be doing a pretty good job there. Of course it would
> also be a very exciting time if the laws governing traffic
> were created by private enterprise. When we have a police
> emergency I pray to God no Black mercenary thugs come to my
> house and shoot up all my neighbors. Our cops on on the
> public payroll and that seems to work very well. Of course
> that is socialism! And when there is a fire to put out
> nearby, I am happy the firefighters hired by our socialistic
> government are there to control things. And the water they
> use comes from the local socialist government sources free to
> whomever needs a drink. Fortunately, we don't have to worry
> about the poor getting water. And who sets the standards for
> the water quality through out our nation? Not the private
> sector! And what about sewage? Hmm, dirty rotten socialists
> at it again. Clean water, clean air, and speaking about air,
> who keeps all those planes from crashing into each other? Who
> sets the standards? Who enforces the standards? And those
> god-awful public schools and universities is this socialism or
> what? And I would caution conservatives not to go into public
> libraries, parks, public buildings because they all smack of
> the "S" word. And the construction standards used to keep all
> of our buildings from collapsing on our heads, who sets and
> enforces those standards? Don't forget that the US has it
> share of natural disasters that the government is expected to
> help protect us from and clean up afterwards. So whose afraid
> of the socialist boogeyperson?
>
> And why should adequate, affordable health care be denied to
> anyone?
>
> Jim Baumbach
>
> Marsha Hahn wrote:
>> Susan and all,
>>
>> What a stimulating conversation! Thank you, Marshall, for
>> getting it started. To respond to Susan, the American
>> government is a government "of the people." That's one of
>> our core principles. That means I'm the government, and so
>> are you. I am REALLY trying to figure out how to play a
>> constructive role as an individual citizen, responsible for
>> my government, in this health care debate.
>>
>> It is precisely from the place of kindness and generosity,
>> which you mention below, that I wish to make decent health
>> care available to my fellow human beings - and to which I,
>> out of kindness and generosity, would gladly contribute to
>> make happen. We need to reclaim our ownership of our
>> government - it is US.
>>
>> My thoughts.
>>
>> Marsha
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Susan Fertig <susan at gmdtech.com>
>> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:49:33 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the
>> people
>>
>> Jack and Paul, First of all, I appreciate your taking my
>> question seriously and not just dismissing it as uncaring or
>> unthinking.
>>
>> Next, I think what has always distinguished people of
>> successful community is that they CHOOSE to care for each
>> other. Not that there is a governing body (the Soviet?)
>> requiring it and thereby diminishing to nothing the human spirit.
>>
>> Finally, I do not believe that anyone or any
>> government "owes" me medical care, or food, or a home, or a
>> car, or any of the things that everyone seems to take for
>> granted. If I am unable to provide those things for myself,
>> then I truly do hope there will be kind and generous people
>> who will help me. But not, please God, my government.
>>
>> I have been so dismayed by our pell mell helter skelter
>> descent into socialism within an oh-so-short handful of
>> months that I am no longer a conservative. I have lost all
>> balance I ever had and have fallen right over into
>> libertarianism (not, of course, the LaRouche style version).
>>
>> Susan
>>
>> *Susan Fertig-Dykes*
>> *tel: (703) 751-5956*
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net
>> [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] *On Behalf Of *Jack Gilles
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:09 PM
>> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community
>> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the
>> people
>>
>> Dear Susan,
>>
>> I too think this is a question that needs a thoughtful
>> answer. I am grateful for Paul's response as it is, as it
>> should be, from the heart which is the means by which this
>> community dialogues.
>>
>> I remember JWM reminding us that first and foremost we were
>> born into humanity, not family, community or nation.
>> Therefore, it is the humanity of us all that we stand before
>> as equals, and with a mutual responsibility. That said, each
>> of us has a responsibility for how that life is lived and
>> cared for. We bare the responsibility for our actions,
>> including those that lead to consequences of illness and poor
>> well-being. But there are issues of wellness that are beyond
>> our individual control, be those of birth, accident or social
>> circumstances. For these we need to ask, whom will be
>> responsible for the healing and care? In that question it is
>> clear that our (USA) social structures and consciousness is
>> in need of strengthening, including our understanding of death.
>>
>> We all know of the issues of families not willing to care
>> for, nor honor the dignity and role of elders in their lives.
>> We have developed vast industries to hide this
>> responsibility, to render the elders subservient to youth and
>> deny a legitimate profound role in our collective community.
>> We also know that we have lost community in and through
>> which care needs to be acted out. We have seen so many fine
>> examples of community care including many that have financial
>> structural designs that seem to work well. In a "perfect
>> world" perhaps this model of caring community with equitable
>> structures would be what we need to build. I would share
>> with what I imagine is your concern that once a "right" is
>> designated at such a large level as the US economy and
>> society things not only get complicated and often too
>> expensive, but it keeps us from facing the more ontological
>> needs of building our local communities and our individual
>> responsibilities for ourselves and our neighbors. It
>> hinders the necessary dialogue on what care should we
>> collectively render (i.e. unlimited end of life treatments at
>> all costs, who gets transplants etc.). We have a very
>> profound dialogue that needs to occur around these issues
>> that isn't taking place, at least at a national level. In
>> other words, the issue of "the right of care for all" when
>> implied at the national level, is not dealing with the
>> contradictions and therefore, I believe, will not lead to the
>> solutions we need to develop. Without elaboration, we who
>> live in the Litibu community of Mexico are presently facing
>> such community care issues.
>>
>> That said, it remains to say which present options being
>> discussed will take us towards our goal of all of us caring
>> for all in a way that brings us into full mutual love and
>> responsibility. I am not totally clear as to which model
>> does that and what model keeps us further away from the real
>> contradictions of our common good.
>>
>> Grace & Peace,
>>
>> Jack
>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 2:46 AM, PSchrijnen at aol.com
>> </mc/compose?to=PSchrijnen at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Why? What a great question, Susan.
>>>
>>> I was on top of Table Mountain yesterday. The cable car and
>>> facilities on top of the mountain were refurbished about 10
>>> years ago, and Mandela opened it: declaring it SA's gift to
>>> the earth. He declared it so. An act of generosity. Of
>>> hope. And most people on top of the mountain were South
>>> Africans, most of them black, but there were accents and
>>> shades of all colours of the rainbow.
>>>
>>> So, thanks Susan, for letting me ponder that question.
>>>
>>> By the way, the top of Table Mountain is sacred space. There
>>> is an awe in the air. People whisper thoughtfully, aware of
>>> the presence of the mystery. I wept at times in the presence
>>> of this perspective on the beautiful earth on which I live.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>> <table%20mountain.JPG>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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