[Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people

Sun Aug 30 14:24:35 CDT 2009

You might enjoy Mark Levin's book, "Liberty and Tyranny".  

Susan

  _____  

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Jim Baumbach
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 4:52 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people

This kind of conversation always seems to lead to extremes.  And all I can
think of is that conservatives live in a totally different universe.  They
seem to be so worried about Socialism when most of their existence in the US
is socialistic.  Can you imagine what our highway system across this country
would be like if it was left in the hands of private corporations?
Government (federal, state or local) seems to be doing a pretty good job
there.  Of course it would also be a very exciting time if the laws
governing traffic were created by private enterprise.  When we have a police
emergency I pray to God no Black mercenary thugs come to my house and shoot
up all my neighbors.  Our cops on on the public payroll and that seems to
work very well.  Of course that is socialism!  And when there is a fire to
put out nearby, I am happy the firefighters hired by our socialistic
government are there to control things.  And the water they use comes from
the local socialist government sources free to whomever needs a drink.
Fortunately, we don't have to worry about the poor getting water.  And who
sets the standards for the water quality through out our nation?  Not the
private sector!  And what about sewage?  Hmm, dirty rotten socialists at it
again.  Clean water, clean air, and speaking about air, who keeps all those
planes from crashing into each other?  Who sets the standards?  Who enforces
the standards?  And those god-awful public schools and universities is this
socialism or what?  And I would caution conservatives not to go into public
libraries, parks, public buildings because they all smack of the "S" word.
And the construction standards used to keep all of our buildings from
collapsing on our heads, who sets and enforces those standards?  Don't
forget that the US has it share of natural disasters that the government is
expected to help protect us from and clean up afterwards.  So whose afraid
of the socialist boogeyperson?  

And why should adequate, affordable health care be denied to anyone?

Jim Baumbach

Marsha Hahn wrote: 

Susan and all,

What a stimulating conversation!  Thank you, Marshall, for getting it
started.  To respond to Susan, the American government is a government "of
the people."  That's one of our core principles.  That means I'm the
government, and so are you.  I am REALLY trying to figure out how to play a
constructive role as an individual citizen, responsible for my government,
in this health care debate.

It is precisely from the place of kindness and generosity, which you mention
below, that I wish to make decent health care available to my fellow human
beings - and to which I, out of kindness and generosity, would gladly
contribute to make happen.  We need to reclaim our ownership of our
government - it is US.

My thoughts.

Marsha

  _____  

From: Susan Fertig  <mailto:susan at gmdtech.com> <susan at gmdtech.com>
To: Order Ecumenical Community  <mailto:oe at wedgeblade.net>
<oe at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:49:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people

Jack and Paul, First of all, I appreciate your taking my question seriously
and not just dismissing it as uncaring or unthinking.

Next, I think what has always distinguished people of successful community
is that they CHOOSE to care for each other.  Not that there is a governing
body (the Soviet?) requiring it and thereby diminishing to nothing the human
spirit.

Finally, I do not believe that anyone or any government "owes" me medical
care, or food, or a home, or a car, or any of the things that everyone seems
to take for granted. If I am unable to provide those things for myself, then
I truly do hope there will be kind and generous people who will help me.
But not, please God, my government.

I have been so dismayed by our pell mell helter skelter descent into
socialism within an oh-so-short handful of months that I am no longer a
conservative.  I have lost all balance I ever had and have fallen right over
into libertarianism (not, of course, the LaRouche style version).  

Susan

Susan Fertig-Dykes
tel: (703) 751-5956

  _____  

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Jack Gilles
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:09 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people

Dear Susan, 

I too think this is a question that needs a thoughtful answer.  I am
grateful for Paul's response as it is, as it should be, from the heart which
is the means by which this community dialogues.

I remember JWM reminding us that first and foremost we were born into
humanity, not family, community or nation.  Therefore, it is the humanity of
us all that we stand before as equals, and with a mutual responsibility.
That said, each of us has a responsibility for how that life is lived and
cared for.  We bare the responsibility for our actions, including those that
lead to consequences of illness and poor well-being.  But there are issues
of wellness that are beyond our individual control, be those of birth,
accident or social circumstances.  For these we need to ask, whom will be
responsible for the healing and care?  In that question it is clear that our
(USA) social structures and consciousness is in need of strengthening,
including our understanding of death.

We all know of the issues of families not willing to care for, nor honor the
dignity and role of elders in their lives.  We have developed vast
industries to hide this responsibility, to render the elders subservient to
youth and deny a legitimate profound role in our collective community.  We
also know that we have lost community in and through which care needs to be
acted out.  We have seen so many fine examples of community care including
many that have financial structural designs that seem to work well.  In a
"perfect world" perhaps this model of caring community with equitable
structures would be what we need to build.  I would share with what I
imagine is your concern that once a "right" is designated at such a large
level as the US economy and society things not only get complicated and
often too expensive, but it keeps us from facing the more ontological needs
of building our local communities and our individual responsibilities for
ourselves and our neighbors.   It hinders the necessary dialogue on what
care should we collectively render (i.e. unlimited end of life treatments at
all costs, who gets transplants etc.).   We have a very profound dialogue
that needs to occur around these issues that isn't taking place, at least at
a national level.  In other words, the issue of "the right of care for all"
when implied at the national level, is not dealing with the contradictions
and therefore, I believe, will not lead to the solutions we need to develop.
Without elaboration, we who live in the Litibu community of Mexico are
presently facing such community care issues.

That said, it remains to say which present options being discussed will take
us towards our goal of all of us caring for all in a way that brings us into
full mutual love and responsibility.  I am not totally clear as to which
model does that and what model keeps us further away from the real
contradictions of our common good.

Grace & Peace,

Jack

On Aug 29, 2009, at 2:46 AM, PSchrijnen at aol.com wrote:

Why? What a great question, Susan.

I was on top of Table Mountain yesterday. The cable car and facilities on
top of the mountain were refurbished about 10 years ago, and Mandela opened
it: declaring it SA's gift to the earth. He declared it so. An act of
generosity.  Of hope. And most people on top of the mountain were South
Africans, most of them black, but there were accents and shades of all
colours of the rainbow. 

So, thanks Susan, for letting me ponder that question.

By the way, the top of Table Mountain is sacred space. There is an awe in
the air. People whisper thoughtfully, aware of the presence of the mystery.
I wept at times in the presence of this perspective on the beautiful earth
on which I live. 

Paul
<table%20mountain.JPG>

_______________________________________________
OE mailing list
OE at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net

  _____  

_______________________________________________

OE mailing list

OE at wedgeblade.net

http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20090830/cd706a33/attachment-0001.html>