[Oe List ...] rampant socialism

Sun Aug 30 15:38:34 CDT 2009

It all goes back to economics. When I grew up, one person in a family could support a family. Also there were neighborhood schools and the mothers were the "teacher assistant" (not paid). I can understand parents wanting to home school there children today but not many folks can afford to do that. Also, with small neighborhood schools the teachers knew all the kids and there families and often lived in the neighborhood. Children could play after school without a structured program and of course there was no TV. 
Marianna
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Susan Fertig 
  To: 'Order Ecumenical Community' ; dialogue at wedgeblade.net 
  Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 4:00 PM
  Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rampant socialism

  Education has become part of the discussion, so:  my daughter-in-law home schools my three grandchildren, and at first I was worried about that -- would they be effectively "socialized" etc. But it really is a "wow".  First of all, all the kids test out way above their grade levels (the 10 year old was showing up at high school level in most areas, for example).  Secondly, home schooling is really a community effort these days -- my daughter-in-law, Lindie, works in collaboration with other parents who are home schooling, and their children all get together for music and art and drama, etc. (Lindie, by the way, also teaches music to neighborhood children in her home, along with her own kids), and they all are regularly and frequently involved with other kids. Yet my son and daughter-in-law continue to pay taxes that help support the public school system, and the kids must pass the same state-required tests as kids in a public school, but they don't have to submit to the indoctrination.  And don't bother retorting that they are just getting another kind of indoctrination.  Of course they are.  But it goes back to choice and not having the government control everything in your life down to what kind of toilet paper you are allowed to use.

  Susan

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  From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of James Wiegel
  Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 3:47 PM
  To: Order Ecumenical Community; dialogue at wedgeblade.net
  Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rampant socialism

        I wonder if the path that got us here is the same one we need to get to where we are going.  Public education was a great invention from the 1700's til 1967 or so, though I think it was best when it was being provided by a community vs. a national administration.  In a way the interstate highway system was as well (though I never knew how much of that was for the public good and how much to support large construction companies and the auto industry).

        80% of my health (I am making this up, but I think it is accurate) as I look to the future, has to do with lifestyle choices, not high tech, medical interventions.  It has to do with diet, exercise, consciousness, etc.  I have been dealing with the US system with what has turned out to be diagnosed as carpal tunnel syndrome, and it has not been easy.  The general practitioner I go to sees his role as sending me out for tests and interpreting them.  He seems to be a good and competent guy.  No email.  When you call, you are put on hold with a message:  "This call is important to us, so hold on the line", then I wait (and I say, "but not important enough to hire enough people to answer the phone".  You can tell, when you see him, that he has to see a person every 20 minutes or less in order to keep the enterprise running.

        I am in Canada (a village an hour from Halifax, Nova Scotia) and my prescriptions ran out and the prescription by mail service inaccurately thought they could send me refills to Canada, which, it turns out, is impossible.  So I called the clinic down the street, got the receptionist (that was a shock), explained my situation.  "Oh," she said, "you should speak to the doctor.  Hold on."  Turns out the doctor ALWAYS takes his phone calls, "unless I'm in the middle of stitching someone up".  I went to see him at 8:30 at night the next day (8:30 at NIGHT??) and he had already rewritten most of my prescriptions and forwarded them to the pharmacy, but there was one for which there was no match in the Canadian system, so he wanted to talk about that one.  He also noticed I was left handed and he explained his theory for poor penmanship by left handers (he is one), turns out it has to do with the archtecture and flexibility of the elbow . . . Anyway it turned out to be better for me to stop taking one of the drugs for now -- said I really did not need it . . .

        Jim

        Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a pun. G. K. Chesterton

        Jim Wiegel
        401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
        +1 623-936-8671 +1 623-363-3277
        jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com

        --- On Sat, 8/29/09, W. J. <synergi at yahoo.com> wrote:

          From: W. J. <synergi at yahoo.com>
          Subject: [Oe List ...] rampant socialism
          To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>, dialogue at wedgeblade.net
          Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 3:39 PM

          Susan, just get over it and think seriously about where our nation would be if we didn't have some version of a right to public education. If the public school system didn't exist. We so take that for granted that not even the right wing nut cases are proposing a totally privatized educational system (I hope!).

          I'm aware of two major examples of the dangers of a public-private mix (or mess).

          One is California's famous Prop 13 (1978) Jarvis initiative that lowered property taxes and sank our public school system from highly rated to very poorly rated. This set up a two-tier system in which the rich folks sent their kids to private schools while paying much lower taxes to subsidize public schools.

          The other is Charlotte's court-mandated school busing (now rescinded) which, in my view, drained the school system of public support (guess what? the rich white folks sent their kids to private schools while paying much lower taxes to subsidize public schools) and dramatically 'leveled down' or reduced the quality of public education in the system. (Full disclosure: I'm a 'product' of Charlotte's formerly excellent [and segregated] public school system . . . but unlike those living on the wrong side of the tracks, I was privileged to attend one of the top public high schools in the country--class of 1958.)

          In the health care system the concept of medical 'standards of care' supports a minimal level of quality care. Not so in our educational system. There is no standard of excellence in teaching, just an imposed 'teach to the test' method to prepare students to be tested. But at least every child has the right to some version of public education (including home schooling--don't get me started on that!).

          More later on health care 'reform.'

          For a clear perspective on the health care mess, just "follow the money" to see who's raking it in.

          Marshall 

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          From: Susan Fertig <susan at gmdtech.com>
          To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>
          Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 10:49:33 AM
          Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people

          Jack and Paul, First of all, I appreciate your taking my question seriously and not just dismissing it as uncaring or unthinking.

          Next, I think what has always distinguished people of successful community is that they CHOOSE to care for each other.  Not that there is a governing body (the Soviet?) requiring it and thereby diminishing to nothing the human spirit.

          Finally, I do not believe that anyone or any government "owes" me medical care, or food, or a home, or a car, or any of the things that everyone seems to take for granted. If I am unable to provide those things for myself, then I truly do hope there will be kind and generous people who will help me.  But not, please God, my government.

          I have been so dismayed by our pell mell helter skelter descent into socialism within an oh-so-short handful of months that I am no longer a conservative.  I have lost all balance I ever had and have fallen right over into libertarianism (not, of course, the LaRouche style version).  

          Susan

          Susan Fertig-Dykes
          tel: (703) 751-5956

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          From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Jack Gilles
          Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:09 PM
          To: Order Ecumenical Community
          Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people

          Dear Susan, 

          I too think this is a question that needs a thoughtful answer.  I am grateful for Paul's response as it is, as it should be, from the heart which is the means by which this community dialogues.

          I remember JWM reminding us that first and foremost we were born into humanity, not family, community or nation.  Therefore, it is the humanity of us all that we stand before as equals, and with a mutual responsibility.  That said, each of us has a responsibility for how that life is lived and cared for.  We bare the responsibility for our actions, including those that lead to consequences of illness and poor well-being.  But there are issues of wellness that are beyond our individual control, be those of birth, accident or social circumstances.  For these we need to ask, whom will be responsible for the healing and care?  In that question it is clear that our (USA) social structures and consciousness is in need of strengthening, including our understanding of death.

          We all know of the issues of families not willing to care for, nor honor the dignity and role of elders in their lives.  We have developed vast industries to hide this responsibility, to render the elders subservient to youth and deny a legitimate profound role in our collective community.  We also know that we have lost community in and through which care needs to be acted out.  We have seen so many fine examples of community care including many that have financial structural designs that seem to work well.  In a "perfect world" perhaps this model of caring community with equitable structures would be what we need to build.  I would share with what I imagine is your concern that once a "right" is designated at such a large level as the US economy and society things not only get complicated and often too expensive, but it keeps us from facing the more ontological needs of building our local communities and our individual responsibilities for ourselves and our neighbors.   It hinders the necessary dialogue on what care should we collectively render (i.e. unlimited end of life treatments at all costs, who gets transplants etc.).   We have a very profound dialogue that needs to occur around these issues that isn't taking place, at least at a national level.  In other words, the issue of "the right of care for all" when implied at the national level, is not dealing with the contradictions and therefore, I believe, will not lead to the solutions we need to develop.  Without elaboration, we who live in the Litibu community of Mexico are presently facing such community care issues.

          That said, it remains to say which present options being discussed will take us towards our goal of all of us caring for all in a way that brings us into full mutual love and responsibility.  I am not totally clear as to which model does that and what model keeps us further away from the real contradictions of our common good.

          Grace & Peace,

          Jack

          On Aug 29, 2009, at 2:46 AM, PSchrijnen at aol.com wrote:

            Why? What a great question, Susan.

            I was on top of Table Mountain yesterday. The cable car and facilities on top of the mountain were refurbished about 10 years ago, and Mandela opened it: declaring it SA's gift to the earth. He declared it so. An act of generosity.  Of hope. And most people on top of the mountain were South Africans, most of them black, but there were accents and shades of all colours of the rainbow. 

            So, thanks Susan, for letting me ponder that question.

            By the way, the top of Table Mountain is sacred space. There is an awe in the air. People whisper thoughtfully, aware of the presence of the mystery. I wept at times in the presence of this perspective on the beautiful earth on which I live. 

            Paul
            <table%20mountain.JPG>

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