[Oe List ...] rampant socialism
James Wiegel
jfwiegel at yahoo.com
Mon Aug 31 06:43:13 CDT 2009
Haven't we been more focused on an "organization friendly" economy than anything else? I went back, a couple of months ago and read the essay put together by Anne Wood (as I recall) on A Practical Vision for the New Social Vehicle -- where we gestalted all of the proposals from Summer 71 into 5 main themes. The one on "Globalized Economics" focused very strongly on creating an economy and economic activity driven by purpose beyond profit. Really addressed me.
Jim
Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a pun. G. K. Chesterton
Jim Wiegel
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
+1 623-936-8671 +1 623-363-3277
jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
--- On Sun, 8/30/09, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey at charter.net> wrote:
From: Marianna Bailey <wmbailey at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rampant socialism
To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 1:38 PM
It all goes back to economics. When I grew up, one
person in a family could support a family. Also there were neighborhood
schools and the mothers were the "teacher assistant" (not paid). I can
understand parents wanting to home school there children today but not many
folks can afford to do that. Also, with small neighborhood schools the teachers
knew all the kids and there families and often lived in the
neighborhood. Children could play after school without a structured program
and of course there was no TV.
Marianna
----- Original Message -----
From:
Susan Fertig
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community' ; dialogue at wedgeblade.net
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 4:00
PM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rampant
socialism
Education has become part of the discussion,
so: my daughter-in-law home schools my three grandchildren, and at
first I was worried about that -- would they be effectively "socialized" etc.
But it really is a "wow". First of all, all the kids test out way above
their grade levels (the 10 year old was showing up at high school level in
most areas, for example). Secondly, home schooling is really a community
effort these days -- my daughter-in-law, Lindie, works in collaboration with
other parents who are home schooling, and their children all get together for
music and art and drama, etc. (Lindie, by the way, also teaches music to
neighborhood children in her home, along with her own kids), and they all are
regularly and frequently involved with other kids. Yet my son and
daughter-in-law continue to pay taxes that help support the public school
system, and the kids must pass the same state-required tests as kids in a
public school, but they don't have to submit to the indoctrination.
And don't bother retorting that they are just getting another kind of
indoctrination. Of course they are. But it goes back to choice and
not having the government control everything in your life down to what kind of
toilet paper you are allowed to use.
Susan
From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of James
Wiegel
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 3:47 PM
To: Order
Ecumenical Community; dialogue at wedgeblade.net
Subject: Re: [Oe List
...] rampant socialism
I wonder if the path that got us here is the same one we
need to get to where we are going. Public education was a great
invention from the 1700's til 1967 or so, though I think it was best
when it was being provided by a community vs. a national
administration. In a way the interstate highway system was as well
(though I never knew how much of that was for the public good and how
much to support large construction companies and the auto
industry).
80% of my health (I am making this up, but I think it
is accurate) as I look to the future, has to do with lifestyle choices,
not high tech, medical interventions. It has to do with diet,
exercise, consciousness, etc. I have been dealing with the US
system with what has turned out to be diagnosed as carpal tunnel
syndrome, and it has not been easy. The general practitioner I go
to sees his role as sending me out for tests and interpreting
them. He seems to be a good and competent guy. No
email. When you call, you are put on hold with a message:
"This call is important to us, so hold on the line", then I wait (and I
say, "but not important enough to hire enough people to answer the
phone". You can tell, when you see him, that he has to see a
person every 20 minutes or less in order to keep the enterprise
running.
I am in Canada (a village an hour from Halifax, Nova
Scotia) and my prescriptions ran out and the prescription by mail
service inaccurately thought they could send me refills to Canada,
which, it turns out, is impossible. So I called the clinic down
the street, got the receptionist (that was a shock), explained my
situation. "Oh," she said, "you should speak to the doctor.
Hold on." Turns out the doctor ALWAYS takes his phone calls,
"unless I'm in the middle of stitching someone up". I went to see
him at 8:30 at night the next day (8:30 at NIGHT??) and he had already
rewritten most of my prescriptions and forwarded them to the pharmacy,
but there was one for which there was no match in the Canadian system,
so he wanted to talk about that one. He also noticed I was left
handed and he explained his theory for poor penmanship by left handers
(he is one), turns out it has to do with the archtecture and flexibility
of the elbow . . . Anyway it turned out to be better for me to stop
taking one of the drugs for now -- said I really did not need it . .
.
Jim
Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a
pun. G. K. Chesterton
Jim Wiegel
401 North Beverly Way,
Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
+1 623-936-8671 +1
623-363-3277
jfwiegel at yahoo.com
www.partnersinparticipation.com
--- On Sat, 8/29/09, W. J.
<synergi at yahoo.com> wrote:
From:
W. J. <synergi at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Oe List ...] rampant
socialism
To: "Order Ecumenical Community"
<oe at wedgeblade.net>, dialogue at wedgeblade.net
Date: Saturday,
August 29, 2009, 3:39 PM
#yiv1091331163 #yiv1753742875 DIV {
MARGIN:0px;}
Susan, just get over it and think seriously about where our
nation would be if we didn't have some version of a right to public
education. If the public school system didn't exist. We so take that
for granted that not even the right wing nut cases are proposing a
totally privatized educational system (I hope!).
I'm aware of two major examples of the dangers of a
public-private mix (or mess).
One is California's famous Prop 13 (1978) Jarvis initiative that
lowered property taxes and sank our public school system from highly
rated to very poorly rated. This set up a two-tier system in which the
rich folks sent their kids to private schools while paying much lower
taxes to subsidize public schools.
The other is Charlotte's court-mandated school busing (now
rescinded) which, in my view, drained the school system of public
support (guess what? the rich white folks sent their kids to
private schools while paying much lower taxes to subsidize public
schools) and dramatically 'leveled down' or reduced the quality of
public education in the system. (Full disclosure: I'm a 'product' of
Charlotte's formerly excellent [and segregated] public school system .
. . but unlike those living on the wrong side of the tracks, I was
privileged to attend one of the top public high schools in the
country--class of 1958.)
In the health care system the concept of medical 'standards of
care' supports a minimal level of quality care. Not so in our
educational system. There is no standard of excellence in teaching,
just an imposed 'teach to the test' method to prepare students to be
tested. But at least every child has the right to some version of
public education (including home schooling--don't get me started on
that!).
More later on health care 'reform.'
For a clear perspective on the health care mess, just "follow the
money" to see who's raking it in.
Marshall
From: Susan Fertig
<susan at gmdtech.com>
To: Order Ecumenical Community
<oe at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009
10:49:33 AM
Subject:
Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the
people
Jack and Paul, First of all, I
appreciate your taking my question seriously and not just dismissing
it as uncaring or unthinking.
Next, I think what has always
distinguished people of successful community is that they CHOOSE to
care for each other. Not that there is a governing body (the
Soviet?) requiring it and thereby diminishing to nothing the human
spirit.
Finally, I do not believe that anyone
or any government "owes" me medical care, or food, or a home, or
a car, or any of the things that everyone seems to take for granted.
If I am unable to provide those things for myself, then I truly do
hope there will be kind and generous people who will help me.
But not, please God, my government.
I have been so dismayed by our pell
mell helter skelter descent into socialism within an oh-so-short
handful of months that I am no longer a conservative. I have
lost all balance I ever had and have fallen right over into
libertarianism (not, of course, the LaRouche style version).
Susan
Susan Fertig-Dykes
tel: (703) 751-5956
From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Jack
Gilles
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:09
PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe
List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people
Dear Susan,
I too think this is a question that needs a thoughtful answer.
I am grateful for Paul's response as it is, as it should be,
from the heart which is the means by which this community
dialogues.
I remember JWM reminding us that first and foremost we were born
into humanity, not family, community or nation. Therefore, it is
the humanity of us all that we stand before as equals, and with a
mutual responsibility. That said, each of us has a
responsibility for how that life is lived and cared for. We bare
the responsibility for our actions, including those that lead to
consequences of illness and poor well-being. But there are
issues of wellness that are beyond our individual control, be those of
birth, accident or social circumstances. For these we need to
ask, whom will be responsible for the healing and care? In that
question it is clear that our (USA) social structures and
consciousness is in need of strengthening, including our understanding
of death.
We all know of the issues of families not willing to care for,
nor honor the dignity and role of elders in their lives. We have
developed vast industries to hide this responsibility, to render the
elders subservient to youth and deny a legitimate profound role in our
collective community. We also know that we have lost community
in and through which care needs to be acted out. We have seen so
many fine examples of community care including many that have
financial structural designs that seem to work well. In a
"perfect world" perhaps this model of caring community with equitable
structures would be what we need to build. I would share with
what I imagine is your concern that once a "right" is designated at
such a large level as the US economy and society things not only get
complicated and often too expensive, but it keeps us from facing the
more ontological needs of building our local communities and our
individual responsibilities for ourselves and our neighbors. It
hinders the necessary dialogue on what care should we collectively
render (i.e. unlimited end of life treatments at all costs, who gets
transplants etc.). We have a very profound dialogue that needs
to occur around these issues that isn't taking place, at least at a
national level. In other words, the issue of "the right of care
for all" when implied at the national level, is not dealing with the
contradictions and therefore, I believe, will not lead to the
solutions we need to develop. Without elaboration, we who live
in the Litibu community of Mexico are presently facing such community
care issues.
That said, it remains to say which present options being
discussed will take us towards our goal of all of us caring for all in
a way that brings us into full mutual love and responsibility. I
am not totally clear as to which model does that and what model keeps
us further away from the real contradictions of our common good.
Grace & Peace,
Jack
On Aug 29, 2009, at 2:46 AM, PSchrijnen at aol.com
wrote:
Why? What a great question, Susan.
I was on top of Table Mountain yesterday. The cable car and
facilities on top of the mountain were refurbished about 10 years
ago, and Mandela opened it: declaring it SA's gift to the earth. He
declared it so. An act of generosity. Of hope. And most people
on top of the mountain were South Africans, most of them black, but
there were accents and shades of all colours of the rainbow.
So, thanks Susan, for letting me ponder that question.
By the way, the top of Table Mountain is sacred space. There is
an awe in the air. People whisper thoughtfully, aware of the
presence of the mystery. I wept at times in the presence of this
perspective on the beautiful earth on which I live.
Paul
<table%20mountain.JPG>
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