[Oe List ...] 12/10/09, Spong: The Origins of the New Testament, Part VIII: The Corinthian Letters

Sat Dec 12 18:39:16 CST 2009

I withdraw my query. Apparently a lot of people want to get it on the
listserv. 

I have a nimble "delete" finger, so it's not that big an inconvenience for
these to pop into my inbox. They leave just as quickly.

Susan

  _____  

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Ellen & David Rebstock
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 7:01 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] 12/10/09, Spong: The Origins of the New
Testament,Part VIII: The Corinthian Letters

I agree.  I have followed Bishop Spongs spirit journey both at the Jesus
Seminar here when it was located in Santa Rosa and else where and read some
of his books.  I really appreciate ellie providing it on the Oe site.  I
don't care to debate whether we should all search out his web site on a
regular basis.
David Rebstock

2009/12/12 Bill Bailey <bailey03132 at charter.net>

Susan, I am very pleased that all of us have the privilege of receiving
Bishop Spong's news letter. In a time when the churches and people of the
Christian persuasion are desperately trying to reconstruct an authentic
Christian spirituality that goes beyond doctrines that were created 4 to 500
years after the Jesus event, I find Bishop Spong's news letter extremely
relevant to and for all of us who are participants in the spirit movement of
this new day. 

Grace and Peace, Bill Bailey

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Susan Fertig <mailto:susan at gmdtech.com>  
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community' <mailto:oe at wedgeblade.net>  
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] 12/10/09, Spong: The Origins of the New
Testament,Part VIII: The Corinthian Letters

Why do these things go out to the whole OE community listserv?  Is there
some way for me to continue on the listserv without getting these messages
which are easily available on the Spong website? 

Susan

  _____  

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of elliestock at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 4:24 PM
To: Dialogue at wedgeblade.net; OE at wedgeblade.net
Subject: [Oe List ...] 12/10/09, Spong: The Origins of the New Testament,
Part VIII: The Corinthian Letters

<http://tracking.waterfrontmedia.com/nlsclick/t.aspx?k=71&d=2009/12/10&e=ell
iestock at aol.com&utp=&rd=https://secure.agoramedia.com/manage_spong_account.a
sp> My Account
<http://tracking.waterfrontmedia.com/nlsclick/t.aspx?k=71&d=2009/12/10&e=ell
iestock at aol.com&utp=&rd=http://secure.agoramedia.com/spong/calendar.asp>
Calendar
<http://tracking.waterfrontmedia.com/nlsclick/t.aspx?k=71&d=2009/12/10&e=ell
iestock at aol.com&utp=&rd=http://forums.prospero.com/sp-bishopspong> Message
Boards
<http://tracking.waterfrontmedia.com/nlsclick/t.aspx?k=71&d=2009/12/10&e=ell
iestock at aol.com&utp=&rd=http://secure.agoramedia.com/story_home_spong.asp>
My Essay Library 	 	
A New Christianity for a New World 	

Print this Article 

Not a member?Subscribe now!
<http://tracking.waterfrontmedia.com/nlsclick/t.aspx?k=71&d=2009/12/10&e=ell
iestock at aol.com&utp=&rd=http://clk.atdmt.com/AGM/go/ups0120000005agm/direct/
01/>  

  _____  

Thursday December 10, 2009 	
The Origins of the New Testament
Part VIII: The Corinthian Letters	
Paul was a complicated mixture of many things. He was a missionary who
traveled hundreds of miles by foot and by boat to tell his story. He was, as
we noted last week when examining the letter to the Galatians, an intense
zealot who would fight vigorously to defend his understanding of the gospel.
He was a theologian who sought to put his experience of God into rational
thought forms so that they could be passed on. Perhaps above all things,
however, Paul was a pastor who sought to smooth out disputes, confront evil
and ease hurt feelings in the congregations that he founded and served. When
we examine his correspondence with the church in Corinth, it is this
pastoral side that dominates. Even when he discusses issues like the
resurrection, his discussion is pastorally oriented as he seeks to ease in
the people of the Corinthian church their anxiety connected with mortality. 

The first thing to note about the two Corinthian letters is that they appear
to be composites of a more extensive correspondence that perhaps reached a
total of four or even five Pauline letters. By a careful analysis of our two
remaining epistles to the Corinthians, scholars have come to the conclusion
that these "lost letters," to which Paul actually refers in the epistles
that we do have, have been included, at least in part, in what we call II
Corinthians. These scholars point to such passages as II Cor.6:1-7:1, II
Cor.10-13 and even in the extraneous verses in Cor.11:32-33 that appear to
be inserts into the texts that actually break the flow of Paul's argument.
Despite this strange construction, however, scholars find no evidence to
suggest that all of II Corinthians is the authentic work of Paul. 
We need to remember that preserving letters in the first century was an
inexact and costly procedure of hand copying, and that no one had yet
assigned the status of "Holy Scripture" to the writings of Paul. Maybe that
is why they preserved only what they believed was most important. 
When we turn to the content of these two Corinthian epistles themselves, we
find Paul, the pastor, dealing with human beings who are acting like human
beings. Paul knows what every pastor knows, namely, that congregations are
not made up of angels. At the same time congregations learn very quickly
that ordination does not bestow perfection on their ordained leader.
Pastoral care is the sensitive attempt to bring wholeness out of an exchange
between human passion and human insecurity. It is a delicately nuanced
balancing act, the job of which is to enhance the humanity of all who are
involved. If we need a text to describe the goal of all pastoral activity,
it would be the Fourth Gospel's definition of Jesus' purpose: "I have come,"
John's Jesus says, "that they might have life and have it abundantly." That
is finally both the mission of the Christian Church and the hoped-for
outcome in every pastoral situation. Abundant life, please note, does not
always mean happiness or even the easing of pain. Many people seek wholeness
in quite destructive ways, with addiction to drugs, alcohol, sex and even
success being just a few of them. Sometimes abundant life becomes possible
only in confrontation and brokenness. Real pastoral care is not about making
it feel good; it is about helping wholeness to be created. Paul understood
that and every pastor must learn it sooner or later. Wholeness is seen in
the freedom to be, in the ability to escape the survival mentality that
inevitably locks us into self-centeredness. Wholeness is found in the
maturity of being able to live for another by giving our love away. It will
be through the lens of that understanding of pastoral care that I will seek
to explore the issues found in the epistles to the Corinthians. 
The Corinthian congregation appears to have had more than its share of
pastoral needs and even to have exasperated Paul on more than one occasion.
Some of the issues to which he refers are party lines and divisions among
the people. Some claimed loyalty to Paul, some to Apollos and still others
to Peter. Beyond that their rowdy behavior had begun to distort the worship
of the people. In that early part of Christian history the Eucharist was
begun with a community meal called "The Agape Feast." The Corinthians,
however, had turned this common meal into a gluttonous orgy that left some
of the poor hungry. Then they had turned the Eucharistic wine into an
occasion of public drunkenness. Paul obviously needed to speak to this
behavior. 
There was also a dispute in the congregation about the meat served at this
"Agape Feast." It had been bought at a local butcher shop where, in this
pagan society, it had been slaughtered in ceremonial offerings to the idols
of the people. Could Christians eat meat that had been offered to idols?
Some Corinthian followers of Jesus were offended by this idea. Still others
had become enamored with Paul's message of salvation as the ultimate
expression of God's grace and the conviction that this grace, so abundantly
and freely given, was not dependent on their personal behavior. This meant
that they had now become what the church came to call "anti-nomianism," that
is, some were suggesting that the more they sinned, the more God's grace
abounded. This stance appeared to render any sense of personal ethical
responsibility completely meaningless. Still others seemed to have a
hierarchy of value associated with certain activities of the synagogue.
Prophets who shared their prophetic words with the congregation were deemed
to be of less value than those who claimed the gift of "glossolalia" or
"speaking in tongues," that is, the ability to utter words that only God
could understand. This was, they seemed to think, the highest gift of all
and thus the most to be honored. 
If this were not enough for one pastor to deal with, there was also a gender
dispute going on. Some Corinthian women seemed to take seriously Paul's
words, in his earlier letter to the Galatians, that "in Christ there is
neither male nor female, but all are one." This new freedom and equality for
women obviously challenged the patriarchal value system of that ancient
world. Some women, quite clearly, pushed these boundaries well beyond even
Paul's comfort level. No one, not even Paul, escapes his or her cultural
prejudices completely. The extent of this boundary pushing becomes obvious
when Paul asserts his threatened male authority by saying, "I forbid a woman
to have authority over a man!" Since no one forbids what has never happened,
these women were overtly claiming authority over men in the life of the
church. 
While Paul's prejudiced humanity is in full display in this last conflict,
on most of the others he rises to the pastoral challenge. Paul begins by
telling them that Christ alone is their foundation and that any division of
loyalties among the followers of various leaders was based on the inability
to understand that these leaders were simply "servants through which you
believed - I planted, Apollos watered, but only God gave the increase." In
regard to the Eucharist, Paul upbraids the members of this congregation for
eating and drinking in such a way that some are hungry and some are drunk.
He urges them to eat and drink in their own homes and to recognize that the
act of breaking bread and drinking wine in the Eucharistic feast is "a
participation in the body of Christ" and what his life of love and sacrifice
was all about. The Eucharist, he proclaims, is a liturgical way in which
they participate in Christ's wholeness. 
Paul takes anti-nomianism on directly, reminding them of their mutual
responsibility to one another. He suggests that immorality, at its heart,
was to treat another human being as a thing to be used rather than as a
person to be loved. He defuses the debate about meat offered to idols by
saying that since idols are nothing, meat offered to idols is meat offered
to nothing, so there is no prohibition as to its use. He continues, however,
by stating that this stance misses the point of this dispute. "All things
are lawful, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful but not
all things build up." It was a subtle, but powerful, distinction. The evil
in this debate, he continues, is the lack of sensitivity on the part of some
to the feelings of others. Candy is not evil, but to offer candy to one
battling with obesity is not loving. It does not build up the person or
fulfill the goal of Christ. 
Finally, Paul gets to the debate on spiritual gifts. There is no hierarchy
of gifts, he argues, for all gifts are in the service of the same spirit and
are expressions of the same God who inspires us all. The gifts of the people
offered in worship are necessary to the building up of all, he suggests.
Every gift is for the benefit of the whole community that he calls the body
of Christ. Following that analogy of the body, he moves on to suggest that
their bickering as to whose gift is the most important makes as much sense
as a debate between the eye, the ear, the hand and the foot as to which part
of the body has the higher value. 
This sets the stage for Paul's writing of what is surely the most beautiful,
the most memorable and the most quoted passage in the entire Pauline corpus.
After describing the body in which the various organ and parts work together
for the good of the whole, Paul says, "I will show you a more excellent
way." Then he begins his famous ode to love. "Though I speak with the
tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a
clanging cymbal." He continues by defining love as patient, kind, not
boastful or jealous and never ending. He recognized that all human knowledge
is partial. No one sees God face to face. We all see "through a glass
darkly." He urges the Corinthians to put away childish things and to grow
up. Finally, he concludes "that faith, hope and love abide, these three, but
the greatest of these is love." It is Paul at his insightful best.

- John Shelby Spong 

  _____  

Question and Answer 
With John Shelby Spong	

John Ford, via the Internet, writes: 
I had to smile when reading your recent newsletter in which you suggest that
you might be becoming a mystic. I have always read you as a mystic. 
God's peace be with you. 

Dear John, 
I appreciate your words and even your insight. I don't believe one can
volunteer to be a mystic, a prophet, a seer, an intellectual or a genius.
Those are qualities attributed to you by others sometime well after your
earthly pilgrimage is complete. It is meaningful, however, when another
attributes one of those titles to you - so thank you. 
Mysticism is to me primarily coming to terms with the limitations of words.
That seems to be harder to do in religious circles than anywhere else. Words
are always symbols or pointers. They are not the truth or the essence they
seek to describe. They are always human, always time bound and always time
warped. When any human experience is reduced to words, it is always
distorted by time, place, one's level of knowledge, one's time in history
and one's culturally conditioned language Nowhere is that more clear than
when we try to frame who or what God is in the vehicle of human words. A
horse cannot communicate to another horse what it means to be a human being,
for a horse cannot escape its horse nature. A human being can never tell
another human being what it means to be God, because human beings can never
escape the limits of our human nature. Perhaps that is why all human images
of God look very much like a great big human being. 
The deeper I experience the reality and presence of God, the less my words
seem like adequate vehicles to express that truth. Then words cease and one
enters the experience of wordless wonder. Perhaps that is the realization of
the mystic.

- John Shelby Spong

  _____  

Send your questions to support at johnshelbyspong.com
<http://tracking.waterfrontmedia.com/nlsclick/t.aspx?k=71&d=2009/12/10&e=ell
iestock at aol.com&utp=&rd=mailto:support at johnshelbyspong.com>  

Print this Article
<http://tracking.waterfrontmedia.com/nlsclick/t.aspx?k=71&d=2009/12/10&e=ell
iestock at aol.com&utp=&rd=http://secure.agoramedia.com/spong/34682.asp>  

Not a member? Subscribe now!
<http://tracking.waterfrontmedia.com/nlsclick/t.aspx?k=71&d=2009/12/10&e=ell
iestock at aol.com&utp=&rd=http://clk.atdmt.com/AGM/go/ups0120000005agm/direct/
01/>  

<http://tracking.waterfrontmedia.com/nlsclick/t.aspx?k=71&d=2009/12/10&e=ell
iestock at aol.com&utp=&rd=http://www.everydayhealth.com?xid=nl_ANewChristianit
yForANewWorld_20091210> Everyday Health Network 	
Thanks for joining our mailing list, elliestock at aol.com, for A New
Christianity For A New World on 11/09/2008 
REMOVE me from this list
<http://tracking.waterfrontmedia.com/nlsclick/t.aspx?k=71&d=2009/12/10&e=ell
iestock at aol.com&utp=&rd=http://secure.agoramedia.com/manage_subscriptions.as
p?email=elliestock at aol.com%7Eamp%7Enlid=71%7Eamp%7Ehsheml=moc%5Eloa%7Ekcotse
ille> | Add me to this list
<http://tracking.waterfrontmedia.com/nlsclick/t.aspx?k=71&d=2009/12/10&e=ell
iestock at aol.com&utp=&rd=http://secure.agoramedia.com/manage_subscriptions.as
p>  | Manage my e-mail settings
<http://tracking.waterfrontmedia.com/nlsclick/t.aspx?k=71&d=2009/12/10&e=ell
iestock at aol.com&utp=&rd=http://secure.agoramedia.com/manage_subscriptions.as
p?email=elliestock at aol.com> | Contact Customer Service
<http://tracking.waterfrontmedia.com/nlsclick/t.aspx?k=71&d=2009/12/10&e=ell
iestock at aol.com&utp=&rd=mailto:support at agoramedia.us>  
Copyright 2009 Waterfront Media, Inc. All rights reserved.
4 Marshall Street, North Adams, MA 01247
Subject to our terms of service
<http://tracking.waterfrontmedia.com/nlsclick/t.aspx?k=71&d=2009/12/10&e=ell
iestock at aol.com&utp=&rd=http://www.everydayhealth.com/pop_tos.htm?xid=nl_ANe
wChristianityForANewWorld_20091210>  and privacy policy
<http://tracking.waterfrontmedia.com/nlsclick/t.aspx?k=71&d=2009/12/10&e=ell
iestock at aol.com&utp=&rd=http://www.everydayhealth.com/pop_privacy.htm?xid=nl
_ANewChristianityForANewWorld_20091210>  

  _____  

_______________________________________________
OE mailing list
OE at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net

_______________________________________________
OE mailing list
OE at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00773.txt
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0015.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00773.txt
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0016.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00773.txt
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0017.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00773.txt
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0018.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00773.txt
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0019.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00773.txt
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0020.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00773.txt
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0021.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00773.txt
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0022.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00773.txt
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0023.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00773.txt
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0024.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00773.txt
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0025.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00773.txt
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0026.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00773.txt
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0027.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00773.txt
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0028.txt>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00773.txt
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20091212/6e64f467/attachment-0029.txt>