[Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on

John Cock jpc2025 at triad.rr.com
Fri May 1 07:40:57 EDT 2009


Good web page, dude. I will do RSS. Keep the post-modern evangelism going.
Do you define "post-modern" somewhere?
 
Gracious goodness,
 
John

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From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of William Salmon
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 12:07 AM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on


Bill and Frank:
    Re: Corporate writing. What a "novel" idea. 
    I was struck by Bill Schlesinger's word describing hamartia, or "missing
the mark" as an "ontological" word. For the last 25 years of grounding my
invention of Gut Trip Analysis, I've found the designation of "empirical" or
"the indicative" more useful. Certainly, ontology implies a state of being,
and empirical and indicative implies something that is demonstratable. I
plan to pick up your term, please consider mine. Eh? 
    Actually, it is no wonder that our religious beliefs have taken on a
moral connotation. This process began 600 years ago when we lost our
relational understanding of Christianity at the invention of science. The
objectification of all our Christian lexicon turned moralistic. This is the
evidence of the perversion of what is ontological. 
    By-the-way, a friend and I edit a blog that is endorsed by Bishop Spong.
The topic at hand is, "Forgiveness from the Heart."  The address to add to
the blog is experiencingchristinthenow at gmail.com. To view the blog go to
www.experiencingchristinthenow.blogspot.com/. The forward slash is crucial. 
    Thanks for the lesson. 
    One of these days I'll get the invitation letter to add to the blog out
to the OE. 
    Inner peas. 
    Bill Salmon
For more on Gut Trip Analysis, go to my website at
triumc.org/web1/biblestudy or "sermonstarter." All materials are free
downloads. My self-published book on the topic is located at the same
source. 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: frank  <mailto:fjbremner at hotmail.com> bremner 
To: Dialogue ICA <mailto:oe at wedgeblade.net>  
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on


Thanks, Bill.  More below. 

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From: bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org
To: oe at wedgeblade.net
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:45:01 -0600
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on



It's been interesting to me that 'sin' has taken on a moral connotation (You
Are Bad!).  The Greek word - hamartia - means 'missed the mark.'  It's
pretty ontological itself.  The other element is the pretty clear language
in the synoptics and John about the Jesus character; suffering and death
isn't equated with 'divine punishment,' but the necessary consequence to
confronting embedded systems of control that are based on manipulation,
coercion and hierarchy.  (I've always thought of martyrdom as unintended but
sometimes necessary consequences.  Was Bobby Sands, N Ireland hunger
striker, a martyr?  Is hunger striking really martyrdom - or is that a
popular and common abuse of the word?  I've always said "No" as it
manipulates the situation, rather than being a consequence of a positively
intended action, but ......) ... That consequence happens but isn't the last
word.  The alternative system to confronting those systems is George Bush
vs. Saddam Hussein.  And it has its consequences.  

 

Basically, there are 10 types of people.  Those who get binary and those who
don't.  That's a joke.  I'll pass this one on to the students I tutor in
Year 12 Mathematics.  There are some good binary jokes in Jasper Fforde's
novels about the Nursery Crime Division.

 

The pattern of 'accountability' sometimes appeals to some standard out there
for right action.  It also assumes the ability to measure behavior and
actions and their consequences.  It can also be a method of discipline and
care - future oriented for both the individual and the society.  (Did you
take that cookie?).  It never fixes the past, but can be a helpful tool in
pulling things together for the next step.  Blame and shame often leads to
arrogance (I'm good, I did the best I could) or despair (I'm a worthless
fool.)  Both are - of course - illusions, miss the mark, and are postures of
'hamartia.'  

 

"Taking the hit"  - turning the other cheek - cutting loose the bonds
(aphiemi - translated as forgiveness) of having missed the mark - has the
capacity of trying to fit the pieces together (eirene - translated 'peace')
so they work.  (I really like the word stuff in Greek).  It isn't letting
the living dead eat you up (aha! where's my copy of DHL?); it's trusting
that life sustains us as beloved in the midst of all the screwing up we and
others can do, and beckons us constantly to the responsibility that comes
with being linked to all that is.

 

This is a little stream of consciousness (but very useful images, thanks) -
we're in the midst of trying to set up condo's for low income folk ($30K
each), and applying for a SAMHSA grant to integrate primary care into
behavioral health.  Seriously mentally ill folk die about 25 years sooner
than others; nobody's set up to deal with their diabetes, hypertension, etc.
The music's coming in the window from a youth fair outside the window.  And
our youngest son leaves for Iraq this Saturday.  

 

Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Ave
El Paso, TX 79905
(915) 533-7057 x 207
(915) 490-6148 mobile
(915) 533-7158 fax
bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org


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From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of frank bremner
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 3:17 PM
To: Dialogue OE
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on

 

Thanks everyone, for your comments on brokenness, and the Niebuhr
commentary.  They have been useful in coffee-break conversations within my
BTh subject Grace and Humanity (Christian anthropology).  Lots of stuff
about creation, eschatology, sin and grace (of course!), and so on.  
 
(I was also interested in the notes about Hilary Clinton's youth pastor in
Carl Bernstein's book about her - his theological influences looked very
familiar, although they were part of the US theological landscape.)
 
I'm doing the tutorial on Karl Rahner - as his brother once said, it's be
great if he'd written in German!  But I like his notion that "creation is
already blessed" - echoes of Matthew Fox's Original Blessing.  I may even
refer to Jimmy Carter's interview in Playboy, in which he spoke about
forgiveness in an ontological fashion.
 
I'm doing my major essay on "What, if anything, is distinct about Christian
freedom".  Any suggestions on leads and references to pursue?  I'm certainly
taking the tack that "man (sic) is freedom" from NRM/OW/RS-I etc.  
 
And definitely taking a Christian (and Christ-event) approach rather than a
Jesus-ian one - although Jesus before Pilate, and Conchis (in John Fowles'
The Magus) before the Nazi firing squad are good illustrations of extreme
freedom, of freedom as "relationship to the situation".  And Kazantzakis'
phrase about "man loses his (sic) freedom as soon as he uses it" (from
Report to Greco?).  
 
And certainly the responsibility/obedience/ freedom relationship from
Bonhoeffer - my current take is an ontological rather than a moral one -
that obedience (from obediens = I listen) means living in a world of
connectedness, and that freedom means living in a world of solitariness in
my decision-making ("When I'm on my journey there is no-one else but me").
 
Any ideas?  Good references?  Good quotes?  (Remember "corporate writing"?)
 
Cheers
 
Frank Bremner
 



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