[Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
James Wiegel
jfwiegel at yahoo.com
Fri May 1 11:32:18 EDT 2009
one question would be, what is the referent for perfect or complete? is the base of your value scale different from your base for what is real? If so, where does it come from? Is there some "really real" form somewhere else that is the yardstick from which to judge what goes on in life?
Jim Wiegel
If anyone tells you something strange about the world, something you had never heard before, do not laugh but listen attentively; make him repeat it, make him explain it; no doubt there is something there worth taking hold of. -- Georges Duhamel.
401 North Beverly Way
Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
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--- On Fri, 5/1/09, R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
> To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
> Date: Friday, May 1, 2009, 8:21 AM
> Frank, Bill and all,
>
> When Methodist clergy are going through the ordination
> process they are asked, "Are you going on the
> perfection?" Granted that this is high symbolism
> right out of the tradition of John Wesley,
> I nonetheless find that the discussion of the human
> condition in terms of perfection/imperfection leads nowhere
> but to moralism. If I am "going on the
> perfection" that assumes I'm not there yet and
> that therefore being imperfect, I'm flawed--damaged
> goods as it were.
>
> It's not that we're not "imperfect. I
> realize, as I read Niebuhr to say,
> that imperfection is one adjective, among others, that
> describes us. I just don't find it constructive to
> think of it in those terms. Rather than
> "imperfection," I prefer to think of the human
> condition in terms of "incompletion." JWM once
> said that until a person has experienced his/her own death,
> he/she is not complete. I don't think he meant by
> "experiencing death" coming face to face with the
> fact that we are going to die. I think he meant doing
> it--dying. To put that as the precondition for
> "completeness", which I interpret to mean
> "wholeness," puts us into a kind of "being
> absorbed back into the world soul" mode.
>
> Think of "incompleteness" in the context of
> Tillich's "sin as separation." If I'm
> separated from my own mystery, depth and greatness, from my
> neighbor and the ground of being itself, I think it's
> safe to say I'm incomplete. This, it seems to me, is
> to see the situation in terms of the ontological,
> existential, indicative, etc. but clearly not as an issue of
> morality.
>
> So, for me my human striving is not to "go on to
> perfection" but "to go on to completion," to
> become reunited with the G-O-B, self and neighbor and to
> thus experience myself as whole. In the quest I discover
> that my completeness/wholeness is all wrapped up with
> everyone and everything else's completeness and
> wholeness. Where anyone or anything is less than whole, I
> am diminished as well. Therefore my striving is to
> serve all creation, not so that it may be
> "un-flawed," but so that it may experience and
> live out of its completeness/wholeness and in the process
> I, as a part of all creation, may experience and live out
> of my completeness/wholeness as well, to the degree that
> that is possible, assuming JWM was right, this side of the
> grave.
>
> My contribution to the ever evolving story,
> Randy Williams
>
> --- On Thu, 4/30/09, frank bremner
> <fjbremner at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: frank bremner <fjbremner at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness,
> Niebuhr and so on
> To: "Dialogue ICA" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
> Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 7:56 PM
>
>
>
>
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> Thanks, Bill. More below.
>
>
> From: bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org
> To: oe at wedgeblade.net
> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:45:01 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness,
> Niebuhr and so on
>
>
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>
> It’s been interesting to me that ‘sin’ has taken on a
> moral connotation (You Are Bad!). The Greek word –
> hamartia – means ‘missed the mark.’ It’s pretty
> ontological itself. The other element is the pretty clear
> language in the synoptics and John about the Jesus
> character; suffering and death isn’t equated with
> ‘divine punishment,’ but the necessary consequence to
> confronting embedded systems of control that are based on
> manipulation, coercion and hierarchy. (I've always
> thought of martyrdom as unintended but sometimes necessary
> consequences. Was Bobby Sands, N Ireland hunger striker,
> a martyr? Is hunger striking really martyrdom - or is that
> a popular and common abuse of the word? I've always
> said "No" as it manipulates the situation, rather
> than being a consequence of a positively intended action,
> but ......) .... That consequence happens but isn’t the
> last word. The alternative system to confronting those
> systems is George Bush vs. Saddam Hussein. And it has
> its consequences.
>
> Basically, there are 10 types of people. Those who get
> binary and those who don’t. That’s a joke. I'll
> pass this one on to the students I tutor in Year 12
> Mathematics. There are some good binary jokes in Jasper
> Fforde's novels about the Nursery Crime Division.
>
> The pattern of ‘accountability’ sometimes appeals to
> some standard out there for right action. It also assumes
> the ability to measure behavior and actions and their
> consequences. It can also be a method of discipline and
> care – future oriented for both the individual and the
> society. (Did you take that cookie?). It never fixes the
> past, but can be a helpful tool in pulling things together
> for the next step. Blame and shame often leads to
> arrogance (I’m good, I did the best I could) or despair
> (I’m a worthless fool.) Both are – of course –
> illusions, miss the mark, and are postures of
> ‘hamartia.’
>
> “Taking the hit” - turning the other cheek –
> cutting loose the bonds (aphiemi – translated as
> forgiveness) of having missed the mark – has the capacity
> of trying to fit the pieces together (eirene – translated
> ‘peace’) so they work. (I really like the word stuff
> in Greek). It isn’t letting the living dead eat you up
> (aha! where's my copy of DHL?); it’s trusting that
> life sustains us as beloved in the midst of all the screwing
> up we and others can do, and beckons us constantly to the
> responsibility that comes with being linked to all that is.
>
> This is a little stream of consciousness (but very useful
> images, thanks) – we’re in the midst of trying to set up
> condo’s for low income folk ($30K each), and applying for
> a SAMHSA grant to integrate primary care into behavioral
> health. Seriously mentally ill folk die about 25 years
> sooner than others; nobody’s set up to deal with their
> diabetes, hypertension, etc. The music’s coming in the
> window from a youth fair outside the window. And our
> youngest son leaves for Iraq this Saturday.
>
>
> Bill Schlesinger
> Project Vida
> 3607 Rivera Ave
> El Paso, TX 79905
> (915) 533-7057 x 207
> (915) 490-6148 mobile
> (915) 533-7158 fax
> bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org
>
>
>
>
> From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net
> [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of frank
> bremner
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 3:17 PM
> To: Dialogue OE
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness,
> Niebuhr and so on
>
> Thanks everyone, for your comments on brokenness, and the
> Niebuhr commentary. They have been useful in coffee-break
> conversations within my BTh subject Grace and Humanity
> (Christian anthropology). Lots of stuff about creation,
> eschatology, sin and grace (of course!), and so on.
>
> (I was also interested in the notes about Hilary
> Clinton's youth pastor in Carl Bernstein's book
> about her - his theological influences looked very
> familiar, although they were part of the US theological
> landscape.)
>
> I'm doing the tutorial on Karl Rahner - as his brother
> once said, it's be great if he'd written in
> German! But I like his notion that "creation is
> already blessed" - echoes of Matthew Fox's Original
> Blessing. I may even refer to Jimmy Carter's interview
> in Playboy, in which he spoke about forgiveness in an
> ontological fashion.
>
> I'm doing my major essay on "What, if anything,
> is distinct about Christian freedom". Any suggestions
> on leads and references to pursue? I'm certainly
> taking the tack that "man (sic) is freedom" from
> NRM/OW/RS-I etc.
>
> And definitely taking a Christian (and Christ-event)
> approach rather than a Jesus-ian one - although Jesus
> before Pilate, and Conchis (in John Fowles' The Magus)
> before the Nazi firing squad are good illustrations
> of extreme freedom, of freedom as "relationship to the
> situation". And Kazantzakis' phrase about
> "man loses his (sic) freedom as soon as he uses
> it" (from Report to Greco?).
>
> And certainly the responsibility/obedience/ freedom
> relationship from Bonhoeffer - my current take is an
> ontological rather than a moral one - that obedience (from
> obediens = I listen) means living in a world of
> connectedness, and that freedom means living in a world of
> solitariness in my decision-making ("When I'm on my
> journey there is no-one else but me").
>
> Any ideas? Good references? Good quotes? (Remember
> "corporate writing"?)
>
> Cheers
>
> Frank Bremner
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