[Oe List ...] OE Digest, Vol 61, Issue 4
Townley, Anne
ATownley at TishmanSpeyer.com
Fri May 1 16:08:20 EDT 2009
The Order at its best ...
Anne Townley
312.669.8116
312-207-1123 (fax)
-----Original Message-----
From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On
Behalf Of oe-request at wedgeblade.net
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 2:56 PM
To: oe at wedgeblade.net
Subject: OE Digest, Vol 61, Issue 4
Send OE mailing list submissions to
oe at wedgeblade.net
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
oe-request at wedgeblade.net
You can reach the person managing the list at
oe-owner at wedgeblade.net
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of OE digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Perfection, continued (KarenBueno at aol.com)
2. Re: Perfection, continued (W. J.)
3. Re: Perfection, continued (Sunny Walker)
4. Re: Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
(elliestock at aol.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 12:04:13 EDT
From: KarenBueno at aol.com
Subject: [Oe List ...] Perfection, continued
To: oe at wedgeblade.net
Message-ID: <c74.4df8f12d.372c777d at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Here are some words of John Wesley:
"Perfection is nothing higher and nothing lower than this: the pure
love
of God and human beings. In other words, loving God with all our heart
and
soul, and our neighbor as ourselves. It is love governing the heart
and
life, running through all our tempers, words, and actions."
Karen Bueno
**************Join ChristianMingle.com? FREE! Meet Christian Singles in
your area. Start now!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221673648x1201419171/aol?redir
=http://www.christianmingle.com/campaign.html%3Fcat%3Dadbuy%26
src%3Dplatforma%26adid%3Dfooter:050109%26newurl%3Dreg_path.html)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20090501/
5a1201a3/attachment-0001.html>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 12:38:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: "W. J." <synergi at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Perfection, continued
To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Message-ID: <329620.3948.qm at web180209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Funny thing is, I didn't read anything in Randy's post about
incompletion/completion etc. that mentioned John Wesley's understanding
of sanctification as being made perfectin love -- in this lifetime. "Are
you going on to perfection?" and "Do you earnestly desire it?" are
questions asked of Wesleyan ordinands that elicit an awareness of
openness to the event/presence of grace and the process of
transformation -- another important theme Randy missed (or obscured).
The classic understanding is that grace strikes or intrudes from without
as a wake-up call, not that we just get wholer and wholer on our own --
that would be the classic Pelagian heresy (see Tillich's History of
Christian Thoughtfor more on Pelagius). Of course we're all
semi-Pelagians (Tillich again) who believe that human readiness (to
"earnestly desire it") makes a huge difference.
Classic "piety" (in whatever flavor) is expressed in ossified practices
that were once (and possibly may once again be) the occasion for opening
consciousness to to an infusion of Spirit. Our work on the NRM is a
wonderful postmodern doorway to the process of sanctification.
May you all grow in grace and peace, even unto the end of your days.
Marshall
________________________________
From: "KarenBueno at aol.com" <KarenBueno at aol.com>
To: oe at wedgeblade.net
Sent: Friday, May 1, 2009 9:04:13 AM
Subject: [Oe List ...] Perfection, continued
Here are some words of John Wesley:
"Perfection is nothing higher and nothing lower than this: the pure
love of God and human beings. In other words, loving God with all our
heart and soul, and our neighbor as ourselves. It is love governing the
heart and life, running through all our tempers, words, and actions."
Karen Bueno
________________________________
Join ChristianMingle.com? FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area.
Start now!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20090501/
8e587a59/attachment-0001.html>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 14:46:00 -0500
From: "Sunny Walker" <sunwalker at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Perfection, continued
To: "'Order Ecumenical Community'" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Message-ID: <C87356601C574337A2CDD7DCDD2E74C1 at sunnylaptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
And as usual, who's to say what's perfect (rendering up to history and
all
that.) - Mother Teresa had a point: "If you judge people,
you have no time to love them."
Sunny
Sunny Walker
303-671-0704
Cell: 303-587-3017
sunwalker at comcast.net
Opening windows that fresh ideas may revive us and our lives have
meaning
_____
From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On
Behalf
Of W. J.
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 2:38 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Perfection, continued
Funny thing is, I didn't read anything in Randy's post about
incompletion/completion etc. that mentioned John Wesley's understanding
of
sanctification as being made perfect in love -- in this lifetime. "Are
you
going on to perfection?" and "Do you earnestly desire it?" are questions
asked of Wesleyan ordinands that elicit an awareness of openness to the
event/presence of grace and the process of transformation -- another
important theme Randy missed (or obscured).
The classic understanding is that grace strikes or intrudes from without
as
a wake-up call, not that we just get wholer and wholer on our own --
that
would be the classic Pelagian heresy (see Tillich's History of Christian
Thought for more on Pelagius). Of course we're all semi-Pelagians
(Tillich
again) who believe that human readiness (to "earnestly desire it") makes
a
huge difference.
Classic "piety" (in whatever flavor) is expressed in ossified practices
that
were once (and possibly may once again be) the occasion for opening
consciousness to to an infusion of Spirit. Our work on the NRM is a
wonderful postmodern doorway to the process of sanctification.
May you all grow in grace and peace, even unto the end of your days.
Marshall
_____
From: "KarenBueno at aol.com" <KarenBueno at aol.com>
To: oe at wedgeblade.net
Sent: Friday, May 1, 2009 9:04:13 AM
Subject: [Oe List ...] Perfection, continued
Here are some words of John Wesley:
"Perfection is nothing higher and nothing lower than this: the pure
love of
God and human beings. In other words, loving God with all our heart and
soul, and our neighbor as ourselves. It is love governing the heart and
life, running through all our tempers, words, and actions."
Karen Bueno
_____
Join ChristianMingle.comR FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area.
Start
now!
<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221673648x1201419171/aol?redir
=htt
p://www.christianmingle.com/campaign.html%3Fcat%3Dadbuy%26src%3Dplatform
a%26
adid%3Dfooter:050109%26newurl%3Dreg_path.html>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20090501/
b74ee6e6/attachment-0001.html>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 15:54:42 -0400
From: elliestock at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
To: oe at wedgeblade.net, Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
Message-ID: <8CB98ADCD6C8621-12CC-1370 at webmail-dd13.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I would like to go beyond Tillich.? Seems to me the indicative is that
we are connected to each other, all life forms, the larger
earth/creation and God--not separated.? The problem and consequences of
our behavior come from our thinking and?living "as if" we were
separated, disconnected.? That is why we "miss the mark" and for me is a
definition of sin.
Ellie
-----Original Message-----
From: R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com>
To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Fri, 1 May 2009 10:21 am
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
Frank, Bill?and all,
?
When Methodist clergy are going through the ordination process they are
asked, "Are you going on the perfection?"? Granted that?this is high
symbolism right out of the tradition of John Wesley, I?nonetheless?find
that the discussion of the human condition in terms of
perfection/imperfection?leads nowhere but to moralism.? If I am "going
on the perfection" that assumes I'm not there yet?and that therefore
being imperfect, I'm flawed--damaged goods as it were.
?
It's not that we're not "imperfect.? I realize, as I?read?Niebuhr to
say, that?imperfection?is?one adjective, among others,?that
describes?us.? I just don't find it constructive to think of it in those
terms.? Rather than "imperfection," I prefer to think of the human
condition in terms of "incompletion."? JWM once said that until a person
has experienced his/her own
death, he/she is not complete.? I don't think he meant by "experiencing
death" coming face to face with the fact that we are going to die.? I
think he meant doing it--dying.? To put that as the precondition for
"completeness", which I interpret to mean "wholeness," puts us into a
kind of?"being absorbed back into the world soul" mode.
?
Think of "incompleteness" in the context of Tillich's "sin as
separation."? If I'm separated from my own mystery, depth and greatness,
from my neighbor and the ground of being itself, I think it's safe to
say?I'm incomplete.? This, it seems to me, is to see the situation in
terms of?the ontological, existential, indicative, etc. but clearly not
as an issue of morality.
?
So, for me?my human striving is not to "go on to perfection" but "to go
on to completion," to become reunited?with the?G-O-B, self and neighbor
and to thus?experience myself as whole.? In the quest I discover that my
completeness/wholeness is all wrapped up with everyone and everything
else's completeness and wholeness.? Where anyone or anything is?less
than whole, I am diminished as well.? Therefore my striving?is to
serve?all creation, not so that it may be "un-flawed," but?so that
it?may experience and live out of?its completeness/wholeness and in the
process I, as a part of all creation, may experience and live out of?my
completeness/wholeness as well, to the degree that that is
possible,?assuming JWM was righ
t, this side of the grave.
?
My contribution to the ever?evolving story,
Randy Williams
--- On Thu, 4/30/09, frank bremner <fjbremner at hotmail.com> wrote:
From: frank bremner <fjbremner at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
To: "Dialogue ICA" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 7:56 PM
Thanks, Bill.??More below.?
From: bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org
To: oe at wedgeblade.net
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:45:01 -0600
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
It?s been interesting to me that ?sin? has taken on a moral connotation
(You Are Bad!).? The Greek word ? hamartia ? means ?missed the mark.??
It?s pretty ontological itself.? The other element is the pretty clear
language in the synoptics and John about the Jesus character; suffering
and death isn?t equated with ?divine punishment,? but the necessary
consequence to confronting embedded systems of control that are based on
manipulation, coercion and hierarchy.? (I've always thought of?martyrdom
as unintended but sometimes necessary consequences.? Was Bobby Sands, N
Ireland?hunger striker, a martyr?? Is hunger striking really martyrdom -
or is that a popular and common abuse of the word?? I've always said
"No" as it manipulates the situation, rather than being a?consequence of
a positively intended?action, but .......) ... That consequence happens
but isn?t the last wor
d.? The alternative system to confronting those systems is George Bush
vs.. Saddam Hussein.? And it has its consequences.?
?
Basically, there are 10 types of people.? Those who get binary and those
who don?t..? That?s a joke.? I'll pass this one on to the students I
tutor in Year 12 Mathematics.? There are some good binary jokes in
Jasper Fforde's novels about the Nursery Crime Division.
?
The pattern of ?accountability? sometimes appeals to some standard out
there for right action.? It also assumes the ability to measure behavior
and actions and their consequences.? It can also be a method of
discipline and care ? future oriented for both the individual and the
society.? (Did you take that cookie?).? It never fixes the past, but can
be a helpful tool in pulling things together for the next step.? Blame
and shame often leads to arrogance (I?m good, I did the best I could) or
despair (I?m a worthless fool.)? Both are ? of course ? illusions, miss
the mark, and are postures of ?hamartia.??
?
?Taking the hit?? - turning the other cheek ? cutting loose the bonds
(aphiemi ? translated as forgiveness) of having missed the mark ? has
the capacity of trying to fit the pieces together (eirene ? translated
?peace?) so they work.? (I really like the word stuff in Greek).? It
isnE2t letting the living dead eat you up (aha! where's my copy of
DHL?); it?s trusting that life sustains us as beloved in the midst of
all the screwing up we and others can do, and beckons us constantly to
the responsibility that comes with being linked to all that is.
?
This is a little stream of consciousness (but very useful images,
thanks) ? we?re in the midst of trying to set up condo?s for low income
folk ($30K each), and applying for a SAMHSA grant to integrate primary
care into behavioral health.? Seriously mentally ill folk die about 25
years sooner than others; nobody?s set up to deal with their diabetes,
hypertension, etc.? The music?s coming in the window from a youth fair
outside the window.? And our youngest son leaves for Iraq this
Saturday.?
?
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Ave
El Paso, TX 79905
(915) 533-7057 x 207
(915) 490-6148 mobile
(915) 533-7158 fax
bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org
From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On
Behalf Of frank bremner
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 3:17 PM
To: Dialogue OE
Subject: Re: [Oe List ....] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
?
Thanks everyone, for?your comments on brokenness, and the Niebuhr
commentary.? They have been useful in coffee-break conversations within
my BTh subject Grace and Humanity (Christian anthropology).? Lots of
stuff about creation, eschatology, sin and grace (of cou
rse!), and so on.?
?
(I was also interested in the notes about Hilary Clinton's youth pastor
in Carl Bernstein's book about her?- his theological influences looked
very familiar, although they were part of the US theological landscape.)
?
I'm doing the tutorial on Karl Rahner - as his brother once said, it's
be great if he'd written in German!? But I like his notion that
"creation is already blessed" - echoes of Matthew Fox's Original
Blessing.? I may even refer to Jimmy Carter's interview in Playboy, in
which he spoke about forgiveness in an ontological fashion.
?
I'm?doing my major essay on "What, if anything, is distinct about
Christian freedom".? Any suggestions on leads and references?to pursue??
I'm certainly taking the tack that "man (sic) is freedom" from
NRM/OW/RS-I etc.?
?
And definitely taking a Christian (and Christ-event) approach rather
than a Jesus-ian one -?although?Jesus before Pilate, and Conchis (in
John Fowles'?The Magus) before the Nazi firing squad are good
illustrations of?extreme freedom, of freedom as "relationship to the
situation".? And Kazantzakis' phrase about "man loses his (sic) freedom
as soon as he uses it" (from Report to Greco?).?
?
And certainly the responsibility/obedience/ freedom relationship from
Bonhoeffer - my current take is an ontological rather than a moral one -
that obedience (from obediens = I listen) means living in a world of
connectedness, and that freedom means living in a world of solitarin
ess in my decision-making ("When I'm on my journey there is no-one else
but me").
?
Any ideas?? Good references?? Good quotes?? (Remember "corporate
writing"?)
?
Cheers
?
Frank Bremner
?
_______________________________________________
E mailing list
E at wedgeblade.net
ttp://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net
_______________________________________________
E mailing list
E at wedgeblade.net
ttp://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20090501/
b626c17a/attachment.html>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
OE mailing list
OE at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net
End of OE Digest, Vol 61, Issue 4
*********************************
More information about the OE
mailing list