[Oe List ...] on perfection
jlepps at pc.jaring.my
jlepps at pc.jaring.my
Fri May 1 18:29:08 EDT 2009
Thanks for introducing this theological discussion. It is most welcome. I'd
like to contribute a little:
When some of us ordinands questioned the bishop as he prepared to ask us if
we were "going on to perfection," his response was something like "If not,
then what ARE you going on to?"
He went on to explain that in Wesleyan theology, the term perfection is not
an end state but an on-going process. Your comments are helpful in
clarifying what that process entails.
I've been interested lately in cultures and their differences of
perception. It seems that many cultures do not find individual separation
the jinx that we do in the West. There is a "communitarian" assumption, not
an "individualistic" one. By that, I mean that for many cultures, the basic
unit is the group, not the individual. People assume they "fit in," and
their striving has to do less for individual achievement than for honoring,
protecting, and strengthening the group. You don't, for example, motivate
people by awards for individual performance but for team successes. When
there is failure to live up to demands, the experience is not guilt but
shame (you have dishonored your group).
For more on this see Fons Trompenaars & Charles Hampden-Turner, Riding the
Waves of Culture: Understanding Cultural diversity in Business (London:
Nicholas Breadley Publishing, 1997).
I'm sure what we point to with "separation" and "alienation" and other such
terms applies equally to those cultures, but the terms will be different.
It seems these days important to demythologize not only in terms of 21st
century mindsets but also of global mindsets. It's not just a matter of
time but also of space!
John Epps
At 04:38 PM 5/1/2009 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Ellie--
> I'm with you. The indicative is that we are not separated but we
> practice thinking we are because of the conflict between our
> human/natural and our humane/spiritual states of being. Ignorance and
> denial are the two worst enemies we humans face. This is why living the
> humane and gracious life while working for justice and mercy becomes the
> empirical evidence of how we fulfill our intended creation. There is
> nothing moral here, but it an ethical stance to live the humane life.
> Using the old Lutheran 'shorter' catechism, our human purpose is to
> praise God. When God is experienced as Perfect At-One-Ment (the doctrine
> of the Atonement), then when we live At-One with our intended purpose we
> praise God. In this same way the cow, the tree and the rock praise God by
> fulfilling their "Is-ness."
> Bill Salmon
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:elliestock at aol.com>elliestock at aol.com
>To: <mailto:oe at wedgeblade.net>oe at wedgeblade.net ;
><mailto:Dialogue at wedgeblade.net>Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
>Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 2:54 PM
>Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
>
>I would like to go beyond Tillich. Seems to me the indicative is that we
>are connected to each other, all life forms, the larger earth/creation and
>God--not separated. The problem and consequences of our behavior come
>from our thinking and living "as if" we were separated,
>disconnected. That is why we "miss the mark" and for me is a definition
>of sin.
>Ellie
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com>
>To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>
>Sent: Fri, 1 May 2009 10:21 am
>Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
>
>Frank, Bill and all,
>
>When Methodist clergy are going through the ordination process they are
>asked, "Are you going on the perfection?" Granted that this is high
>symbolism right out of the tradition of John Wesley, I nonetheless find
>that the discussion of the human condition in terms of
>perfection/imperfection leads nowhere but to moralism. If I am "going on
>the perfection" that assumes I'm not there yet and that therefore being
>imperfect, I'm flawed--damaged goods as it were.
>
>It's not that we're not "imperfect. I realize, as I read Niebuhr to say,
>that imperfection is one adjective, among others, that describes us. I
>just don't20find it constructive to think of it in those terms. Rather
>than "imperfection," I prefer to think of the human condition in terms of
>"incompletion." JWM once said that until a person has experienced his/her
>own death, he/she is not complete. I don't think he meant by
>"experiencing death" coming face to face with the fact that we are going
>to die. I think he meant doing it--dying. To put that as the
>precondition for "completeness", which I interpret to mean "wholeness,"
>puts us into a kind of "being absorbed back into the world soul" mode.
>
>Think of "incompleteness" in the context of Tillich's "sin as
>separation." If I'm separated from my own mystery, depth and greatness,
>from my neighbor and the ground of being itself, I think it's safe to say
>I'm incomplete. This, it seems to me, is to see the situation in terms of
>the ontological, existential, indicative, etc. but clearly not as an issue
>of morality.
>
>So, for me my human striving is not to "go on to perfection" but "to go on
>to completion," to become reunited with the G-O-B, self and neighbor and
>to thus experience myself as whole. In the quest I discover that my
>completeness/wholeness is all wrapped up with everyone and everything
>else's completeness and wholeness. Where anyone or anything is less than
>whole, I am diminished as well. Therefore my striving is to serve all
>creation, not so that it may be "un-flawed," but so that it may experience
>and live out of its completeness/wholeness and in the process I, as a part
>of all creation, may experience and live out of my completeness/wholeness
>as well, to the degree that that is possible, assuming JWM was right, this
>side of the grave.
>
>My contribution to the ever evolving story,
>Randy Williams
>
>--- On Thu, 4/30/09, frank bremner
><<mailto:fjbremner at hotmail.com>fjbremner at hotmail.com> wrote:
>From: frank bremner <<mailto:fjbremner at hotmail.com>fjbremner at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
>To: "Dialogue ICA" <<mailto:oe at wedgeblade.net>oe at wedgeblade.net>
>Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 7:56 PM
>
>Thanks, Bill. More below.
>
>----------
>From: <mailto:bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org>bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org
>To: <mailto:oe at wedgeblade.net>oe at wedgeblade.net
>Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:45:01 -0600
>Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
>
>It’s been interesting to me that ‘sin’ has taken on a moral
>connotation (You Are Bad!). The Greek word – hamartia – means ns
>‘missed the mark.’ It’s pretty ontological itself. The other
>element is the pretty clear language in the synoptics and John a bout the
>Jesus character; suffering and death isn’t equated with ‘divine
>punishment,’ but the necessary consequence to confronting embedded
>systems of control that are based on manipulation, coercion and
>hierarchy. (I've always thought of martyrdom as unintended but sometimes
>necessary consequences. Was Bobby Sands, N Ireland hunger striker, a
>martyr? Is hunger striking really martyrdom - or is that a popular and
>common abuse of the word? I've always said "No" as it manipulates the
>situation, rather than being a consequence of a positively intended
>action, but .......) ... That consequence happens but isn’t the last
>word. The alternative system to confronting those systems is George Bush
>vs.. Saddam Hussein. And it has its consequences.
>
>Basically, there are 10 types of people. Those who get binary and those
>who don’t.. That’s a joke. I'll pass this one on to the students I
>tutor in Year 12 Mathematics. There are some good binary jokes in Jasper
>Fforde's novels about the Nursery Crime Division.
>
>The pattern of ‘accountability’ sometimes appeals to some standard out
>there for right action. It also assumes the ability to measure behavior
>and actions and their consequences. It can also be a method of discipline
>and care – future oriented for both the individual and the society. (Did
>you take that cookie?). It never fixes the past, but can be a helpful
>tool in pulling things together for the next step. Blame and shame often
>leads to arrogance (I’m good, I did the best I could) or despair (I’m
>a worthless fool.) Both are – of course – illusions, miss the mark, k,
>and are postures of ‘hamartia.’
>
>“Taking the hit†- turning the other cheek – cutting loose the bonds
>(aphiemi – translated as forgiveness) of having missed the mark – has the
>capacity of trying to fit the pieces together (eiren e – translated
>‘peace’) so they work. (I really like the word stuff in Greek). It
>isn’t letting the living dead eat you up (aha! where's my copy of DHL?);
>it’s trusting that life sustains us as beloved in the midst of all the
>screwing up we and others can do, and beckons us constantly to the
>responsibility that comes with being linked to all that is.
>
>This is a little stream of consciousness (but very useful images, thanks)
>– we’re in the midst of trying to set up condo’s for low income folk
>($30K each), and applying for a SAMHSA grant to integrate primary care
>into behavioral health. Seriously mentally ill folk die about 25 years
>sooner than others; nobody’s set up to deal with their diabetes,
>hypertension, etc. The music’s coming in the window from a youth fair
>outside the window. And our youngest son leaves for Iraq this Saturday.
>
>Bill Schlesinger
>Project Vida
>3607 Rivera Ave
>El Paso, TX 79905
>(915) 533-7057 x 207
>(915) 490-6148 mobile
>(915) 533-7158 fax
><mailto:bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org>bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org
>
>From: <mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net>oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net
>[mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of frank bremner
>Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 3:17 PM
>To: Dialogue OE
>Subject: Re: [Oe List ....] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
>
>Thanks everyone, for your comments on brokenness, and the Niebuhr
>commentary. They have been use ful in coffee-break conversations within
>my BTh subject Grace and Humanity (Christian anthropology). Lots of stuff
>about creation, eschatology, sin and grace (of course!), and so on.
>
>(I was also interested in the notes about Hilary Clinton's youth pastor in
>Carl Bernstein's book about her - his theological influences looked very
>familiar, although they were part of the US theological landscape.)
>
>I'm doing the tutorial on Karl Rahner - as his brother once said, it's be
>great if he'd written in German! But I like his notion that "creation is
>already blessed" - echoes of Matthew Fox's Original Blessing. I may even
>refer to Jimmy Carter's interview in Playboy, in which he spoke about
>forgiveness in an ontological fashion.
>
>I'm doing my major essay on "What, if anything, is distinct about
>Christian freedom". Any suggestions on leads and references to
>pursue? I'm certainly taking the tack that "man (sic) is freedom" from
>NRM/OW/RS-I etc.
>
>And definitely taking a Christian (and Christ-event) approach rather than
>a Jesus-ian one - although Jesus before Pilate, and Conchis (in John
>Fowles' The Magus) before the Nazi firing squad are good illustrations of
>extreme freedom, of freedom as "relationship to the situation". And
>Kazantzakis' phrase about "man loses his (sic) freedom as soon as he uses
>it" (from Report to Greco?).
>
>And certainly the responsibility/obedience/ freedom relationship from
>Bonhoeffer - my current take is an ontological rather than a moral one -
>that obedience (from obediens = I listen) means living in a world of
>connectedness, and that freedom means living in a world of solitariness in
>my decision-making ("When I'm on my journey there is no-one else but me").
>
>Any ideas? Good references? Good quotes? (Remember "corporate writing"?)
>
>Cheers
>
>Frank Bremner
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>OE mailing list
>
><mailto:OE at wedgeblade.net>OE at wedgeblade.net
>
>http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net
>
>
>__________________________________________
>_____
>OE mailing list
><mailto:OE at wedgeblade.net>OE at wedgeblade.net
>http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net
>
>
>
>----------
>Can't afford a new spring wardrobe?
><http://www.stylelist.com/spring-fashion/spring-style/shopping-in-your-closet?ncid=emlweusstyl00000001>Go
>shopping in your closet instead!
>
>
>----------
>_______________________________________________
>OE mailing list
>OE at wedgeblade.net
>http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net
>
>
>----------
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.12/2090 - Release Date: 05/01/09
>06:17:00
>
>_______________________________________________
>OE mailing list
>OE at wedgeblade.net
>http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net
LENS International (M) Sdn Bhd
5th Fl, Tower 1 Wisma MCIS
Jalan Barat
46200 Petaling Jaya, Selangor
Malaysia
on the web at <www.lensinternational.com>
email: <jlepps at pc.jaring.my>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20090502/75118bb7/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the OE
mailing list