[Oe List ...] Salmon: reply to Ellie on Niebuhr/Tillich, etc.
Jack Gilles
icabombay at igc.org
Sat May 2 12:29:24 EDT 2009
I have followed these comments with interest, but a little trepidation
as to getting caught up in discussion. But I want to add just a bit
of what is a very long and profound understanding. We tend to say
that when we experience "oneness" or "unity" we are participating it
what is "real" and when we experience separateness we are in despair
or what is not real. But the truth is that both separateness and
union are definitions of our reality. It is "both/and" not either
or. It has to do with the center-periphery nature of all existence.
We exist as both a center and a periphery, we are an entity as well as
part of the whole. The creative process comes from the reconciling of
these two realities. Often called the "squaring of the circle" or the
bridging of "heaven and earth" or even living the other world in the
midst of this world. This truth can be found in many of the sacred
architectures, like Stonehenge or vesica pisces, throughout the
world. I'll leave it at that although there is certainly a lot more
to this understanding.
Jack Gilles
On May 2, 2009, at 11:51 AM, R Williams wrote:
> As I remember Tillich, he said the state of our being is we are
> separated and yet bound, which is the source of our despair. Maybe
> what he meant was something like, we are not separate, but we are
> separated--we are in fact inter-related, dependent, connected and
> all those other "inters" but we live as if we were islands unto
> ourselves. Sound right?
>
> Randy
>
> --- On Fri, 5/1/09, William Salmon <wsalmon at cox.net> wrote:
> From: William Salmon <wsalmon at cox.net>
> Subject: [Oe List ...] Salmon: reply to Ellie on Niebuhr/Tillich, etc.
> To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
> Date: Friday, May 1, 2009, 4:38 PM
>
> Ellie--
> I'm with you. The indicative is that we are not separated but we
> practice thinking we are because of the conflict between our human/
> natural and our humane/spiritual states of being. Ignorance and
> denial are the two worst enemies we humans face. This is why living
> the humane and gracious life while working for justice and mercy
> becomes the empirical evidence of how we fulfill our intended
> creation. There is nothing moral here, but it an ethical stance to
> live the humane life.
> Using the old Lutheran 'shorter' catechism, our human purpose is
> to praise God. When God is experienced as Perfect At-One-Ment (the
> doctrine of the Atonement), then when we live At-One with our
> intended purpose we praise God. In this same way the cow, the tree
> and the rock praise God by fulfilling their "Is-ness."
> Bill Salmon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: elliestock at aol.com
> To: oe at wedgeblade.net ; Dialogue at wedgeblade.net
> Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 2:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
>
> I would like to go beyond Tillich. Seems to me the indicative is
> that we are connected to each other, all life forms, the larger
> earth/creation and God--not separated. The problem and consequences
> of our behavior come from our thinking and living "as if" we were
> separated, disconnected. That is why we "miss the mark" and for me
> is a definition of sin.
> Ellie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com>
> To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>
> Sent: Fri, 1 May 2009 10:21 am
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
>
> Frank, Bill and all,
>
> When Methodist clergy are going through the ordination process they
> are asked, "Are you going on the perfection?" Granted that this is
> high symbolism right out of the tradition of John Wesley, I
> nonetheless find that the discussion of the human condition in terms
> of perfection/imperfection leads nowhere but to moralism. If I am
> "going on the perfection" that assumes I'm not there yet and that
> therefore being imperfect, I'm flawed--damaged goods as it were.
>
> It's not that we're not "imperfect. I realize, as I read Niebuhr to
> say, that imperfection is one adjective, among others, that
> describes us. I just don't20find it constructive to think of it in
> those terms. Rather than "imperfection," I prefer to think of the
> human condition in terms of "incompletion." JWM once said that
> until a person has experienced his/her own death, he/she is not
> complete. I don't think he meant by "experiencing death" coming
> face to face with the fact that we are going to die. I think he
> meant doing it--dying. To put that as the precondition for
> "completeness", which I interpret to mean "wholeness," puts us into
> a kind of "being absorbed back into the world soul" mode.
>
> Think of "incompleteness" in the context of Tillich's "sin as
> separation." If I'm separated from my own mystery, depth and
> greatness, from my neighbor and the ground of being itself, I think
> it's safe to say I'm incomplete. This, it seems to me, is to see
> the situation in terms of the ontological, existential, indicative,
> etc. but clearly not as an issue of morality.
>
> So, for me my human striving is not to "go on to perfection" but "to
> go on to completion," to become reunited with the G-O-B, self and
> neighbor and to thus experience myself as whole. In the quest I
> discover that my completeness/wholeness is all wrapped up with
> everyone and everything else's completeness and wholeness. Where
> anyone or anything is less than whole, I am diminished as well.
> Therefore my striving is to serve all creation, not so that it may
> be "un-flawed," but so that it may experience and live out of its
> completeness/wholeness and in the process I, as a part of all
> creation, may experience and live out of my completeness/wholeness
> as well, to the degree that that is possible, assuming JWM was
> right, this side of the grave.
>
> My contribution to the ever evolving story,
> Randy Williams
>
> --- On Thu, 4/30/09, frank bremner <fjbremner at hotmail.com> wrote:
> From: frank bremner <fjbremner at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
> To: "Dialogue ICA" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
> Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 7:56 PM
>
> Thanks, Bill. More below.
> From: bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org
> To: oe at wedgeblade.net
> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:45:01 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
>
> It’s been interesting to me that ‘sin’ has taken on a moral
> connotation (You Are Bad!). The Greek word – hamartia – means
> ‘missed the mark.’ It’s pretty ontological itself. The other
> element is the pretty clear language in the synoptics and John a
> bout the Jesus character; suffering and death isn’t equated with
> ‘divine punishment,’ but the necessary consequence to confronting
> embedded systems of control that are based on manipulation, coercion
> and hierarchy. (I've always thought of martyrdom as unintended but
> sometimes necessary consequences. Was Bobby Sands, N Ireland hunger
> striker, a martyr? Is hunger striking really martyrdom - or is that
> a popular and common abuse of the word? I've always said "No" as it
> manipulates the situation, rather than being a consequence of a
> positively intended action, but .......) ... That consequence
> happens but isn’t the last word. The alternative system to
> confronting those systems is George Bush vs.. Saddam Hussein. And
> it has its consequences.
>
> Basically, there are 10 types of people. Those who get binary and
> those who don’t.. That’s a joke. I'll pass this one on to the
> students I tutor in Year 12 Mathematics. There are some good binary
> jokes in Jasper Fforde's novels about the Nursery Crime Division.
>
> The pattern of ‘accountability’ sometimes appeals to some standard
> out there for right action. It also assumes the ability to measure
> behavior and actions and their consequences. It can also be a
> method of discipline and care – future oriented for both the
> individual and the society. (Did you take that cookie?). It never
> fixes the past, but can be a helpful tool in pulling things together
> for the next step. Blame and shame often leads to arrogance (I’m
> good, I did the best I could) or despair (I’m a worthless fool.)
> Both are – of course – illusions, miss the mark, and are postures of
> ‘hamartia.’
>
> “Taking the hit” - turning the other cheek – cutting loose the
> bonds (aphiemi – translated as forgiveness) of having missed the
> mark – has the capacity of trying to fit the pieces together (eiren
> e – translated ‘peace’) so they work. (I really like the word stuff
> in Greek). It isn’t letting the living dead eat you up (aha!
> where's my copy of DHL?); it’s trusting that life sustains us as
> beloved in the midst of all the screwing up we and others can do,
> and beckons us constantly to the responsibility that comes with
> being linked to all that is.
>
> This is a little stream of consciousness (but very useful images,
> thanks) – we’re in the midst of trying to set up condo’s for low
> income folk ($30K each), and applying for a SAMHSA grant to
> integrate primary care into behavioral health. Seriously mentally
> ill folk die about 25 years sooner than others; nobody’s set up to
> deal with their diabetes, hypertension, etc. The music’s coming in
> the window from a youth fair outside the window. And our youngest
> son leaves for Iraq this Saturday.
>
> Bill Schlesinger
> Project Vida
> 3607 Rivera Ave
> El Paso, TX 79905
> (915) 533-7057 x 207
> (915) 490-6148 mobile
> (915) 533-7158 fax
> bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org
> From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net]
> On Behalf Of frank bremner
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 3:17 PM
> To: Dialogue OE
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ....] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so
> on
>
> Thanks everyone, for your comments on brokenness, and the Niebuhr
> commentary. They have been use ful in coffee-break conversations
> within my BTh subject Grace and Humanity (Christian anthropology).
> Lots of stuff about creation, eschatology, sin and grace (of
> course!), and so on.
>
> (I was also interested in the notes about Hilary Clinton's youth
> pastor in Carl Bernstein's book about her - his theological
> influences looked very familiar, although they were part of the US
> theological landscape.)
>
> I'm doing the tutorial on Karl Rahner - as his brother once said,
> it's be great if he'd written in German! But I like his notion that
> "creation is already blessed" - echoes of Matthew Fox's Original
> Blessing. I may even refer to Jimmy Carter's interview in Playboy,
> in which he spoke about forgiveness in an ontological fashion.
>
> I'm doing my major essay on "What, if anything, is distinct about
> Christian freedom". Any suggestions on leads and references to
> pursue? I'm certainly taking the tack that "man (sic) is freedom"
> from NRM/OW/RS-I etc.
>
> And definitely taking a Christian (and Christ-event) approach rather
> than a Jesus-ian one - although Jesus before Pilate, and Conchis (in
> John Fowles' The Magus ) before the Nazi firing squad are good
> illustrations of extreme freedom, of freedom as "relationship to the
> situation". And Kazantzakis' phrase about "man loses his (sic)
> freedom as soon as he uses it" (fromReport to Greco?).
>
> And certainly the responsibility/obedience/ freedom relationship
> from Bonhoeffer - my current take is an ontological rather than a
> moral one - that obedience (from obediens = I listen) means living
> in a world of connectedness, and that freedom means living in a
> world of solitariness in my decision-making ("When I'm on my journey
> there is no-one else but me").
>
> Any ideas? Good references? Good quotes? (Remember "corporate
> writing"?)
>
> Cheers
>
> Frank Bremner
>
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