[Oe List ...] Salmon: To John Cock on definition of Post-Modern
William Salmon
wsalmon at cox.net
Sat May 2 22:57:12 EDT 2009
John,
I'm assuming you are responding to the blog "ExperiencingChristintheNow." Post-Modern is a world view that can be sociologically defined.
Modernism was the paradigm that came forward out of the 15th to the 17th centuries that encompassed the invention of the Scientific Method, the Industrial Revolution, the Renaissance, and the Reformation. Essentially, this developed over a period of 500 years until Einstein gave us a new math/physics and a new paradigm.
The Modern worldview is experienced as rational, objective, and cognitive.
One of the accepted terms defining this "new world" is Post-Modern, meaning "following the Modern Era." This world view is experienced as experiential, existential and relational.
While there are other definitions, this is the assumed working definition for the blog, as well as for Gut Trip Analysis. This is why the blog begins with the topic, "Forgiveness from the Heart," rather than from "the Head."
Now, if I can get some time to market and manage the blog. For the rest of the school year I'm working as a para-professional teacher in a "school of last resort" for teen and pre-teen boys; too much testosterone and the effects of puberty. Also, the IHOP Bible Study concludes around the end of May, so the end of school and the conclusion of the bible study will give me time to manage the blog and work on the "Conversations in Jail" book.
Inner Peace,
Bill Salmon
----- Original Message -----
From: John Cock
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 6:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
Good web page, dude. I will do RSS. Keep the post-modern evangelism going. Do you define "post-modern" somewhere?
Gracious goodness,
John
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From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of William Salmon
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 12:07 AM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
Bill and Frank:
Re: Corporate writing. What a "novel" idea.
I was struck by Bill Schlesinger's word describing hamartia, or "missing the mark" as an "ontological" word. For the last 25 years of grounding my invention of Gut Trip Analysis, I've found the designation of "empirical" or "the indicative" more useful. Certainly, ontology implies a state of being, and empirical and indicative implies something that is demonstratable. I plan to pick up your term, please consider mine. Eh?
Actually, it is no wonder that our religious beliefs have taken on a moral connotation. This process began 600 years ago when we lost our relational understanding of Christianity at the invention of science. The objectification of all our Christian lexicon turned moralistic. This is the evidence of the perversion of what is ontological.
By-the-way, a friend and I edit a blog that is endorsed by Bishop Spong. The topic at hand is, "Forgiveness from the Heart." The address to add to the blog is experiencingchristinthenow at gmail.com. To view the blog go to www.experiencingchristinthenow.blogspot.com/. The forward slash is crucial.
Thanks for the lesson.
One of these days I'll get the invitation letter to add to the blog out to the OE.
Inner peas.
Bill Salmon
For more on Gut Trip Analysis, go to my website at triumc.org/web1/biblestudy or "sermonstarter." All materials are free downloads. My self-published book on the topic is located at the same source.
----- Original Message -----
From: frank bremner
To: Dialogue ICA
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
Thanks, Bill. More below.
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From: bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org
To: oe at wedgeblade.net
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:45:01 -0600
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
It's been interesting to me that 'sin' has taken on a moral connotation (You Are Bad!). The Greek word - hamartia - means 'missed the mark.' It's pretty ontological itself. The other element is the pretty clear language in the synoptics and John about the Jesus character; suffering and death isn't equated with 'divine punishment,' but the necessary consequence to confronting embedded systems of control that are based on manipulation, coercion and hierarchy. (I've always thought of martyrdom as unintended but sometimes necessary consequences. Was Bobby Sands, N Ireland hunger striker, a martyr? Is hunger striking really martyrdom - or is that a popular and common abuse of the word? I've always said "No" as it manipulates the situation, rather than being a consequence of a positively intended action, but ......) ... That consequence happens but isn't the last word. The alternative system to confronting those systems is George Bush vs. Saddam Hussein. And it has its consequences.
Basically, there are 10 types of people. Those who get binary and those who don't. That's a joke. I'll pass this one on to the students I tutor in Year 12 Mathematics. There are some good binary jokes in Jasper Fforde's novels about the Nursery Crime Division.
The pattern of 'accountability' sometimes appeals to some standard out there for right action. It also assumes the ability to measure behavior and actions and their consequences. It can also be a method of discipline and care - future oriented for both the individual and the society. (Did you take that cookie?). It never fixes the past, but can be a helpful tool in pulling things together for the next step. Blame and shame often leads to arrogance (I'm good, I did the best I could) or despair (I'm a worthless fool.) Both are - of course - illusions, miss the mark, and are postures of 'hamartia.'
"Taking the hit" - turning the other cheek - cutting loose the bonds (aphiemi - translated as forgiveness) of having missed the mark - has the capacity of trying to fit the pieces together (eirene - translated 'peace') so they work. (I really like the word stuff in Greek). It isn't letting the living dead eat you up (aha! where's my copy of DHL?); it's trusting that life sustains us as beloved in the midst of all the screwing up we and others can do, and beckons us constantly to the responsibility that comes with being linked to all that is.
This is a little stream of consciousness (but very useful images, thanks) - we're in the midst of trying to set up condo's for low income folk ($30K each), and applying for a SAMHSA grant to integrate primary care into behavioral health. Seriously mentally ill folk die about 25 years sooner than others; nobody's set up to deal with their diabetes, hypertension, etc. The music's coming in the window from a youth fair outside the window. And our youngest son leaves for Iraq this Saturday.
Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Ave
El Paso, TX 79905
(915) 533-7057 x 207
(915) 490-6148 mobile
(915) 533-7158 fax
bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org
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From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of frank bremner
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 3:17 PM
To: Dialogue OE
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Internal screwed-up-ness, Niebuhr and so on
Thanks everyone, for your comments on brokenness, and the Niebuhr commentary. They have been useful in coffee-break conversations within my BTh subject Grace and Humanity (Christian anthropology). Lots of stuff about creation, eschatology, sin and grace (of course!), and so on.
(I was also interested in the notes about Hilary Clinton's youth pastor in Carl Bernstein's book about her - his theological influences looked very familiar, although they were part of the US theological landscape.)
I'm doing the tutorial on Karl Rahner - as his brother once said, it's be great if he'd written in German! But I like his notion that "creation is already blessed" - echoes of Matthew Fox's Original Blessing. I may even refer to Jimmy Carter's interview in Playboy, in which he spoke about forgiveness in an ontological fashion.
I'm doing my major essay on "What, if anything, is distinct about Christian freedom". Any suggestions on leads and references to pursue? I'm certainly taking the tack that "man (sic) is freedom" from NRM/OW/RS-I etc.
And definitely taking a Christian (and Christ-event) approach rather than a Jesus-ian one - although Jesus before Pilate, and Conchis (in John Fowles' The Magus) before the Nazi firing squad are good illustrations of extreme freedom, of freedom as "relationship to the situation". And Kazantzakis' phrase about "man loses his (sic) freedom as soon as he uses it" (from Report to Greco?).
And certainly the responsibility/obedience/ freedom relationship from Bonhoeffer - my current take is an ontological rather than a moral one - that obedience (from obediens = I listen) means living in a world of connectedness, and that freedom means living in a world of solitariness in my decision-making ("When I'm on my journey there is no-one else but me").
Any ideas? Good references? Good quotes? (Remember "corporate writing"?)
Cheers
Frank Bremner
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