[Oe List ...] Demagoguery

Sun Nov 8 15:36:46 CST 2009

Jim, and all those a part of this conversation.

I. Jim, thank you. Regarding "2 approaches for conflict transformation to
use here."  Thank you for putting out there.  Thank you for the work you are
doing. I truly know you are making a difference and I believe in what you
stand for.  I appreciate your efforts.

II. The Common Sense in people has taken a major shift in belief & perhaps
as to how we take care of each other.  We in the Order did the very best we
knew how, I believe. I think society as a whole did not read the problems or
were educated in some critical areas. These, I believe, include mental
health, alcohol & drug abuse.  Even today with better information large
portions of our population do not get it.

III.  I believe many people minimized many of their own problems (pretty
typical)  and the current thought of that day was often to go along with
that minimization. It was a kind of enablement.  I think that we do not get
it in terms of how big an impact this situation had on Order life. And I
don't think we can even begin to judge accurately what that situation meant
from our place in time.

IV.  The problems had, I believe, a big effect on polity and communication.

Ed

2009/11/8 James Wiegel <jfwiegel at yahoo.com>

> I am also not sure about the word, Rod, though your post gets me thinking.
> . . in going around interviewing people (Judy and I have taped interviews
> with almost 100 people now, in about 80 different interviews, old
> colleagues, ToP trainers, all sorts of folks)
>
>  . . . Seems there was a time, when people's stories are all about Joe
> this, Joe that -- probably the Perkins through Austin period on into the
> early Ecumenical Institute days.  You had the impression that JWM was this
> great, charismatic presenter and you just got pulled in to that.   I think
> it was Mary Laura Jones, or maybe Carol Pierce, who talked about taking a 3
> day RS-1 and basically it was Joe lecturing for 3 days . . .  Larry Loeppke
> talked about doing RS-1 recruiting in Austin and running into old Christian
> Faith and Life Community contacts with "Joe" stories.
>
> By the time I came along, 1966-1967, RS-1 was a structure and there were
> lots and lots of teachers, and, while the lectures were powerful ("My wife
> is the wrath of God in my life"), the meal conversations ("Your name and
> what grounds you in history"), the short courses ("Prayer is a problem"),
> the worship ("the beat is the heart beat"), the meal introductions ("I have
> a friend named Socrates who says there are just 2 kinds of people in the
> world"), the seminars ("Chart paragraph 12 by sentences") all contributed to
> the impact.
>
> I want to hear the story of how that happened, the structure and the
> tools.  Likewise LENS did something of the same thing, it was a structure
> that did something, so was the 5th city project, and the religious house --
> these were much more than one person's spirit or charisma, I believe.
>
> Why did "we" take it apart?  I think we saw that the Order as we had
> created it wasn't sustainable, either in the sense of having  a vital enough
> economic base to both expand "the mission" and to care for us and our
> families, or in the sense of having created an inclusive enough, strong
> enough, vital and growing culture and symbolic life, or in the sense of it
> being a structure that would work to realize the vision we had (whether the
> renewal of the local church, a new social vehicle and new religious mode,
> local development everywhere)  at some point it got clear that the structure
> we had created wasn't going to get us there -- collectively this happened in
> the summer of 84, lots of people came to that realization at other times as
> well.
>
> And, you could probably say that while our corporate missional life did a
> lot of leadership development in us, it didn't create a level of leadership
> in us to take things to the next level except in the sense of our being
> dispersed and doing what we have done since (there was even a cartoon fable
> printed in the summer of 84, I don't have it, would love a copy of the
> plur-e-forms all in dispersion).
>
> It is 10:30 and I am in a school and guest house on a hill overlooking
> Bethlehem, working on how to integrate "our" methods with 2 approaches for
> conflict transformation to use here.
>
> Jim
>
> There's a big difference between marching to a different drummer and having
> no sense of rhythm whatsoever. -- the morning paper.
>
>
> Jim Wiegel
> 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
> +1 623-936-8671 +1 623-363-3277
> jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Herman Greene <hfgreene at mindspring.com>
> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>
> *Sent:* Sun, November 8, 2009 9:59:05 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Oe List ...] Demagoguery
>
>  I don’t think you can rehabilitate the word demagogue that way. I
> wouldn’t call Joe a demagogue and while I wasn’t there doubt that what
> happened was for lack of a demagogue.
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] *On
> Behalf Of *Rod Rippel
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:52 PM
> *To:* Order Ecumenical Community
> *Subject:* [Oe List ...] Demagoguery
>
>
>
>     I'm intrigued by recent exchanges re JWM's impact, zombies and
> facilitation.  And, by a book by Michael Signer, "Demagogue, the fight to
> save democracy from its worst enemies."
>
>     Perhaps Joe could be seen as one attempt toward a new model for
> avoiding the dilemma of the demagogue.
>
>     In his book Signer describes the inherent weakness of democracy as the
> political system which breeds demagogues who become tryants planting  seeds
> of their own self-destruction and violence, creating Facism, oligarchy, or
> dictatorship in the process.
>
>     Demagogue (from the Greek, *demos*, the people and a*gogos*, leader,
> teacher, etc..  Examples: A. Hitler, Huey Long, Joe McCarthy, Geo Wallace,
> etc.
>
> A charimatic leader of people -- usually by strong emotion and oratory --
> who garners power.
>
>     JWM, whatever his gifts and shortcomings, saw the need for engineering
> some kind of new polity which would not concentrate power in one
> individual.  His stance was embedded in the image of the RS-1 pedagogue/LENS
> facilitator; an image of raising life-questions not giving answers but
> options.
>
>     The tendency of RS-1 participants to see the pedagoge as an authority
> figure was effectively avoided when the pedagogue disappeared
>
>     The people, some would say the rabble, want a Tyrant (someone or
> something to give their lives a purpose).
>
>     Was the collapse of Order Polity after JWM because we couldn't live
> without a demagogue? Couldn't find one? or didn't want one?  Or just
> fatigue?
>
>
>
> Rod Rippel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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