[Oe List ...] The Zombie thing

Fri Oct 23 12:54:07 CDT 2009

Makes me wish I had gone to seminary . . .  Just wondering, Bill, do your funders know about the "total depravity" part?  Also, given Herman's work with Thomas Berry, how do those categories translate into our ecozoic age?
 Jim

"The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world's problems."  Mohandas Gandhi

Jim Wiegel
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
+1  623-936-8671   +1  623-363-3277
jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com

________________________________
From: John C. Montgomery <monkeyltd at comcast.net>
To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Fri, October 23, 2009 8:15:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] The Zombie thing

Hey Bill,

Did they teach you that at Chicago? Not when I was there! :>)

Help me a bit - is not total depravity more descriptive of the social bondage than the individual's character.
Marjorie Suchocki has written some about the recovery of "original sin" or "ancestral sin" in the East as a clue to institutional sin - i.e. sin that I am born into before I am even conscious of it? So, showing up in the South, I am a racist, before I ever thought bigoted thoughts about my neighbor?

Unfortunately, we are so inundated by Niebuhr's overemphasis on individual arrogance (given his and the Order's reliance on existential theological contexts), we are generally not aware of our being shaped by institutional sin. So we think if we seek to treat women fairly, we are no longer sexist. Hello?

If I am correct, then this has huge implications for Christology - moving from (not entirely) individual reprentance (atonement) and toward (but not entirely) on social transformation and liberation.

But hey, I'm Wesleyan! 

John C. Montgomery
(c) 678-468-4913

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Schlesinger" <pvida at whc.net>
To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 10:21:45 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] The Zombie thing

Not only am I totally depraved, but I am unconditionally called (elected) to be responsible, compassionate and to be the beloved one I am.  Tough situation, no? <g>.  Only a dyed in the wool Wesleyan enthusiast would believe that they were going on to perfection!

Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Ave
El Paso, TX 79905
(915) 533-7057 x 207
(915) 490-6148 mobile
(915) 533-7158 fax
bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org
www.projectvidaelpaso.org

________________________________

From:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Herman Greene
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 5:54 AM
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] The Zombie thing

I find great comfort and delight in two pretty Calvinist beliefs – total depravity and unconditional [predestined] election. 

Are you totally depraved?

________________________________

From:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Bill Schlesinger
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:33 PM
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] The Zombie thing

So you’re a zombie walking these days? <g>

Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Ave
El Paso, TX 79905
(915) 533-7057 x 207
(915) 490-6148 mobile
(915) 533-7158 fax
bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org
www.projectvidaelpaso.org

________________________________

From:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Herman Greene
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 8:14 PM
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] The Zombie thing

So much for the wisdom of Calvin.

Herman

________________________________

From:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Bill Schlesinger
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 10:14 PM
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: [Oe List ...] The Zombie thing

‘My, hopefully, ever evolving digestion of what we did for and to people’s lives is best reflected in the almost cultic fear, that was helped by JWM, that once you were in community you could not back out without becoming a zombie.’

A personal memory:  As a young seminarian in the West side EI world, I was amazed by the tools and perceptions available to me.  I stopped JWM and asked, “Should I stay here or should I take these into the local church?”  He stopped and looked at me, and said, “There are only two ways to live.  Either you’re in the order or out of the order.  If you’re in the order, there’s only one thing you have to do – obey God.  If you’re out of the order, there’s only one thing you have to do – Obey God.  Obey God.”  Then he walked on.  

My sense of the walls closing in – and my willingness to leave in the middle of the night as a result – ended as the conscious rejection of the only group of folk who came close to being an ideal for me.  I couldn’t take the brokenness underneath the rhetoric.  I find great comfort and delight in two pretty Calvinist beliefs – total depravity and unconditional election.  We’re all screwed up folk – all of us.  And being screwed up doesn’t interfere with all of us being called to compassion, responsibility, and being the beloved ones we are.

There’s another Calvinist doctrine – perseverance of the saints.  It says basically that once you’re awake you can never become a zombie again.  You can look like one, act like one, hurt yourself and others as though you were one.  But you can’t be one.

FWIW

Bill Schlesinger
Project Vida
3607 Rivera Ave
El Paso, TX 79905
(915) 533-7057 x 207
(915) 490-6148 mobile
(915) 533-7158 fax
bschlesinger.pv at tachc.org
www.projectvidaelpaso.org

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