[Oe List ...] Does the Big Sort give any clues?

Tue Sep 1 23:50:10 CDT 2009

Very interesting response, Jim.  I have seen governments prevent the
distribution of medicine donated to them for their people.  In one case, in
the Sandinistan Nicaragua, the medicine was left in the warehouse in very
hot weather -- at least the destruction by weather kept the corrupt
government from selling the goods and pocketing the revenue, but the people
remained without needed medicine.  That, I think is certainly tantamount to
murder. 

I've been thinking about what you ask in your message below.  I think it is
clearly murder if you interfere with people's ability to feed themselves, if
they die as a result.  If they do not have the means, and you have more than
you need but do not offer to help them, it is clearly against what Jesus
preached.  Is it murder in the secular Rule of Law sense? I guess not.  But
we all have to live with our own understanding of our moral obligations.
Now, if the government is acting responsibly and taxing responsibly and has
the ability to provide for those who do not have the means, and does, and
then creates in those beneficiaries a dependence or even simply a
dissolution of their will to care for themselves, is that a crime?

Susan

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From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Jim Baumbach
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 4:56 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Does the Big Sort give any clues?

Susan, I always enjoy your presence on the listserve.  I have to admit, you
make me reassess my perspectives (although I am usually right).  In the
question of whether people have the right to eat, I ponder these options: if
people have a means to feed themselves, is it murder if I interfere with
their obtaining food until they starve to death?  And if people do not have
the means to feed themselves, is it murder for if I refuse to give them food
until they starve to death?  Why or why not?

Jim Baumbach

Susan Fertig wrote: 

Perhaps I should explain that I do want everyone to eat, absolutely.  I've
spent much of my life working on that.  Is it a right?  No.  I think we need
to define what me mean by a "right" and whether it is government that
fulfills all needs.

Susan

Susan Fertig-Dykes
tel: (703) 751-5956

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From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of James Wiegel
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 8:22 AM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Cc: Colleague Dialogue
Subject: [Oe List ...] Does the Big Sort give any clues?

I found myself struggling with this in early July, near Jerusalem, in
working with a pilot for bringing together the sides in the Israeli -
Palestinian conflict.  With people in violent conflict, it is not clear that
there is anything "in common" on which to base decisions for the future.  It
was pointed out that using "rights" language puts people into the position
of being ready to fight for what they see as justice, whereas using the
language of basic human needs puts people in more of a place to inquire what
is possible.  

Even so, what are these basic human needs and who is the guarantor?  Even in
the constitution they were stated as "self evident"

Maybe there is something deeper going on in this shrill American debate?  I
wonder if anyone who has been studying The Big Sort might have a thought?

Jim

Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a pun. G. K. Chesterton

Jim Wiegel
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
+1 623-936-8671 +1 623-363-3277
jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com

--- On Sat, 8/29/09, Susan Fertig  <mailto:susan at gmdtech.com>
<susan at gmdtech.com> wrote:

From: Susan Fertig  <mailto:susan at gmdtech.com> <susan at gmdtech.com>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Bill Alerding
To: "'Order Ecumenical Community'"  <mailto:oe at wedgeblade.net>
<oe at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 11:35 AM

No.

Susan Fertig-Dykes
tel: (703) 751-5956

  _____  

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of A.M. Noel
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 2:26 PM
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Bill Alerding

Yes

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From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Susan Fertig
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:16 AM
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Bill Alerding

Do we have a right to eat?

Susan Fertig-Dykes
tel: (703) 751-5956

  _____  

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Tracy E. Longacre
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 3:31 AM
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Bill Alerding

Why? Maybe because, like rain, much disease, injury, illness, etc. rains on
all, regardless of ability to pay. If you have a right to eat but no right
to health care, what's the point? 

Of course, we all know that, despite the fact that we spend our tax dollars
pushing governments around the world to believe and provide healthcare as a
right, this is not in fact true in the US.

   Tracy E. Longacre

   from Bukavu, DR Congo

   Blog: http://telglobal.vox.com <http://telglobal.vox.com/> 

   Run Blog:  http://revruns.blogspot.com <http://revruns.blogspot.com/> 

   Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tlongacre/

   Want to receive monthly updates on me and my work? send an e-mail to:
telupdates-subscribe at topica.com

When it is over, I don't want to wonder if I have made of my life something
particular, and real. I don't want to find myself sighing and frightened, or
full of argument.                    - Mary Oliver

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Susan Fertig
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 3:43 AM
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Bill Alerding

Why?

Susan Fertig-Dykes

tel: (703) 751-5956

  _____  

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of William Alerding
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 2:20 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: [Oe List ...] Bill Alerding

As Ted Kennedy so well said: "Healthcare in a right of all the people, not a
priviledge" 

i

Bill Alerding

On Aug 28, 2009, at 1:18 PM, David Walters wrote:

All the Healthcare belongs to all the people.

David Walters

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