[Oe List ...] rampant socialism

Tue Sep 1 22:36:24 CDT 2009

I think socially responsible business is the key -- not government mandated
social responsibility. When businesses realize that adopting social
conscience is good for profit (and it is), they can be more easily convinced
to go that route.  And that is a LOT healthier than building a stronger,
more authoritarian government.

Susan

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From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of James Wiegel
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 7:43 AM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rampant socialism

Haven't we been more focused on an "organization friendly" economy than
anything else?  I went back, a couple of months ago and read the essay put
together by Anne Wood (as I recall) on A Practical Vision for the New Social
Vehicle -- where we gestalted all of the proposals from Summer 71 into 5
main themes.  The one on "Globalized Economics" focused very strongly on
creating an economy and economic activity driven by purpose beyond profit.
Really addressed me.

Jim

Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a pun. G. K. Chesterton

Jim Wiegel
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
+1 623-936-8671 +1 623-363-3277
jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com

--- On Sun, 8/30/09, Marianna Bailey <wmbailey at charter.net> wrote:

From: Marianna Bailey <wmbailey at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rampant socialism
To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 1:38 PM

It all goes back to economics. When I grew up, one person in a family could
support a family. Also there were neighborhood schools and the mothers were
the "teacher assistant" (not paid). I can understand parents wanting to home
school there children today but not many folks can afford to do that. Also,
with small neighborhood schools the teachers knew all the kids and there
families and often lived in the neighborhood. Children could play after
school without a structured program and of course there was no TV. 
Marianna

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Susan Fertig 
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community' ; dialogue at wedgeblade.net 
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rampant socialism

Education has become part of the discussion, so:  my daughter-in-law home
schools my three grandchildren, and at first I was worried about that --
would they be effectively "socialized" etc. But it really is a "wow".  First
of all, all the kids test out way above their grade levels (the 10 year old
was showing up at high school level in most areas, for example).  Secondly,
home schooling is really a community effort these days -- my
daughter-in-law, Lindie, works in collaboration with other parents who are
home schooling, and their children all get together for music and art and
drama, etc. (Lindie, by the way, also teaches music to neighborhood children
in her home, along with her own kids), and they all are regularly and
frequently involved with other kids. Yet my son and daughter-in-law continue
to pay taxes that help support the public school system, and the kids must
pass the same state-required tests as kids in a public school, but they
don't have to submit to the indoctrination.  And don't bother retorting that
they are just getting another kind of indoctrination.  Of course they are.
But it goes back to choice and not having the government control everything
in your life down to what kind of toilet paper you are allowed to use.

Susan

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From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of James Wiegel
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 3:47 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community; dialogue at wedgeblade.net
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] rampant socialism

I wonder if the path that got us here is the same one we need to get to
where we are going.  Public education was a great invention from the 1700's
til 1967 or so, though I think it was best when it was being provided by a
community vs. a national administration.  In a way the interstate highway
system was as well (though I never knew how much of that was for the public
good and how much to support large construction companies and the auto
industry).

80% of my health (I am making this up, but I think it is accurate) as I look
to the future, has to do with lifestyle choices, not high tech, medical
interventions.  It has to do with diet, exercise, consciousness, etc.  I
have been dealing with the US system with what has turned out to be
diagnosed as carpal tunnel syndrome, and it has not been easy.  The general
practitioner I go to sees his role as sending me out for tests and
interpreting them.  He seems to be a good and competent guy.  No email.
When you call, you are put on hold with a message:  "This call is important
to us, so hold on the line", then I wait (and I say, "but not important
enough to hire enough people to answer the phone".  You can tell, when you
see him, that he has to see a person every 20 minutes or less in order to
keep the enterprise running.

I am in Canada (a village an hour from Halifax, Nova Scotia) and my
prescriptions ran out and the prescription by mail service inaccurately
thought they could send me refills to Canada, which, it turns out, is
impossible.  So I called the clinic down the street, got the receptionist
(that was a shock), explained my situation.  "Oh," she said, "you should
speak to the doctor.  Hold on."  Turns out the doctor ALWAYS takes his phone
calls, "unless I'm in the middle of stitching someone up".  I went to see
him at 8:30 at night the next day (8:30 at NIGHT??) and he had already
rewritten most of my prescriptions and forwarded them to the pharmacy, but
there was one for which there was no match in the Canadian system, so he
wanted to talk about that one.  He also noticed I was left handed and he
explained his theory for poor penmanship by left handers (he is one), turns
out it has to do with the archtecture and flexibility of the elbow . . .
Anyway it turned out to be better for me to stop taking one of the drugs for
now -- said I really did not need it . . .

Jim

Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a pun. G. K. Chesterton

Jim Wiegel
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
+1 623-936-8671 +1 623-363-3277
jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com

--- On Sat, 8/29/09, W. J. <synergi at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: W. J. <synergi at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Oe List ...] rampant socialism
To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>,
dialogue at wedgeblade.net
Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 3:39 PM

Susan, just get over it and think seriously about where our nation would be
if we didn't have some version of a right to public education. If the public
school system didn't exist. We so take that for granted that not even the
right wing nut cases are proposing a totally privatized educational system
(I hope!).

I'm aware of two major examples of the dangers of a public-private mix (or
mess).

One is California's famous Prop 13 (1978) Jarvis initiative that lowered
property taxes and sank our public school system from highly rated to very
poorly rated. This set up a two-tier system in which the rich folks sent
their kids to private schools while paying much lower taxes to subsidize
public schools.

The other is Charlotte's court-mandated school busing (now rescinded) which,
in my view, drained the school system of public support (guess what? the
rich white folks sent their kids to private schools while paying much lower
taxes to subsidize public schools) and dramatically 'leveled down' or
reduced the quality of public education in the system. (Full disclosure: I'm
a 'product' of Charlotte's formerly excellent [and segregated] public school
system . . . but unlike those living on the wrong side of the tracks, I was
privileged to attend one of the top public high schools in the
country--class of 1958.)

In the health care system the concept of medical 'standards of care'
supports a minimal level of quality care. Not so in our educational system.
There is no standard of excellence in teaching, just an imposed 'teach to
the test' method to prepare students to be tested. But at least every child
has the right to some version of public education (including home
schooling--don't get me started on that!).

More later on health care 'reform.'

For a clear perspective on the health care mess, just "follow the money" to
see who's raking it in.

Marshall 

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From: Susan Fertig <susan at gmdtech.com>
To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 10:49:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people

Jack and Paul, First of all, I appreciate your taking my question seriously
and not just dismissing it as uncaring or unthinking.

Next, I think what has always distinguished people of successful community
is that they CHOOSE to care for each other.  Not that there is a governing
body (the Soviet?) requiring it and thereby diminishing to nothing the human
spirit.

Finally, I do not believe that anyone or any government "owes" me medical
care, or food, or a home, or a car, or any of the things that everyone seems
to take for granted. If I am unable to provide those things for myself, then
I truly do hope there will be kind and generous people who will help me.
But not, please God, my government.

I have been so dismayed by our pell mell helter skelter descent into
socialism within an oh-so-short handful of months that I am no longer a
conservative.  I have lost all balance I ever had and have fallen right over
into libertarianism (not, of course, the LaRouche style version).  

Susan

Susan Fertig-Dykes
tel: (703) 751-5956

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From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Jack Gilles
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:09 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] all the earth belongs to all the people

Dear Susan, 

I too think this is a question that needs a thoughtful answer.  I am
grateful for Paul's response as it is, as it should be, from the heart which
is the means by which this community dialogues.

I remember JWM reminding us that first and foremost we were born into
humanity, not family, community or nation.  Therefore, it is the humanity of
us all that we stand before as equals, and with a mutual responsibility.
That said, each of us has a responsibility for how that life is lived and
cared for.  We bare the responsibility for our actions, including those that
lead to consequences of illness and poor well-being.  But there are issues
of wellness that are beyond our individual control, be those of birth,
accident or social circumstances.  For these we need to ask, whom will be
responsible for the healing and care?  In that question it is clear that our
(USA) social structures and consciousness is in need of strengthening,
including our understanding of death.

We all know of the issues of families not willing to care for, nor honor the
dignity and role of elders in their lives.  We have developed vast
industries to hide this responsibility, to render the elders subservient to
youth and deny a legitimate profound role in our collective community.  We
also know that we have lost community in and through which care needs to be
acted out.  We have seen so many fine examples of community care including
many that have financial structural designs that seem to work well.  In a
"perfect world" perhaps this model of caring community with equitable
structures would be what we need to build.  I would share with what I
imagine is your concern that once a "right" is designated at such a large
level as the US economy and society things not only get complicated and
often too expensive, but it keeps us from facing the more ontological needs
of building our local communities and our individual responsibilities for
ourselves and our neighbors.   It hinders the necessary dialogue on what
care should we collectively render (i.e. unlimited end of life treatments at
all costs, who gets transplants etc.).   We have a very profound dialogue
that needs to occur around these issues that isn't taking place, at least at
a national level.  In other words, the issue of "the right of care for all"
when implied at the national level, is not dealing with the contradictions
and therefore, I believe, will not lead to the solutions we need to develop.
Without elaboration, we who live in the Litibu community of Mexico are
presently facing such community care issues.

That said, it remains to say which present options being discussed will take
us towards our goal of all of us caring for all in a way that brings us into
full mutual love and responsibility.  I am not totally clear as to which
model does that and what model keeps us further away from the real
contradictions of our common good.

Grace & Peace,

Jack

On Aug 29, 2009, at 2:46 AM, PSchrijnen at aol.com wrote:

Why? What a great question, Susan.

I was on top of Table Mountain yesterday. The cable car and facilities on
top of the mountain were refurbished about 10 years ago, and Mandela opened
it: declaring it SA's gift to the earth. He declared it so. An act of
generosity.  Of hope. And most people on top of the mountain were South
Africans, most of them black, but there were accents and shades of all
colours of the rainbow. 

So, thanks Susan, for letting me ponder that question.

By the way, the top of Table Mountain is sacred space. There is an awe in
the air. People whisper thoughtfully, aware of the presence of the mystery.
I wept at times in the presence of this perspective on the beautiful earth
on which I live. 

Paul
<table%20mountain.JPG>

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