[Oe List ...] More about the definitions of Liberal andConservative

Wed Sep 2 22:40:53 CDT 2009

Ronald Reagan and most Conservatives before him were traditional
Conservatives who favored business and distrusted government.  Having
earlier been isolationists, they became hawkish supporters of the military
industrial complex, but didn't' have the imperialist ambitions of the more
recent neo-Conservatives.  In the 1980s, Conservative Christians decided to
become politically active, with a focus upon so-called social issues, but
they agreed with traditional Conservatives in supporting businesses while
distrusting government. Libertarians also distrust government, including
government intervention on so-called social issues, concerning which they
are often Liberal.  The coalition of Christian Conservatives and
Libertarians has always been unstable.  The Neo-Conservatives are primarily
Crony Capitalists, characterized by deception, incompetence and corruption
as they view government as a piggy bank to be exploited through tax cuts and
no-bid, no performance contracts concerning both domestic and foreign
programs.  

Recently, many Traditional Conservatives and Libertarians have reacted
negatively to the excesses of Christian Conservatives, tea baggers and
neo-Conservatives and now see themselves as Independents instead of
Republicans.  The result is a Republican Party which is increasingly a
Southern and Appalachian regional cult, oriented toward the views expressed
by Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin.

I also note that when Democrats are in control, public and private
investments are made such that the economy tends to thrive (an exception was
Carter's presidency).  When Republicans get in, they slash investments and
cut taxes, thus killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.  The economy
does poorly until they are replaced by Democrats.  Following Lynden Johnson,
the divisive Vietnam War, and the great society, Liberals became unclear
about their values and went into a defensive crouch in the face of
Republican offensive strategies.  Since you can't win without both playing
offense and defense, Democrats lost even when Clinton years were both
peaceful and prosperous.  It didn't help that Clinton promoted himself, but
not the Democratic Party.  

Follow the link in red below to see the evidence that Conservatives oppose
our Liberal Priorities.  Dave Thomas

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of ed feldmanis
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 6:03 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] More about the definitions of Liberal
andConservative

Dave,

It does seem to be unfair to label "Traditional Conservatives" with the same
brush as the rest of the bunch you mention.  I can't defend them and I am
not one of them.  They need to speak up. The traditional conservatives may
be all dead; (tongue in cheek) possibly murdered by the rest of the crowd.
It is the traditionalists that are targets.  Today they are misnamed as
Republican moderates. They certainly aren't. Yet they are the ones that get
whacked on the state level. The book called the Big Sort tells this story.
Also the Republican political gang, called the Republican "Club for Growth"
attacks and destroys the careers of the Traditional Conservatives, known
today as moderates.

Ed

2009/9/2 Dave Thomas <davthom at att.net>

Learn more about Liberals and the types of Conservatives (Traditional
Conservatives, Libertarians, Christian Conservatives and Neo-Conservatives)
who oppose them at
http://www.pugetsoundliberals.org/bootcamp/05AboutLiberals.htm  

Also note our Liberal Priorities, which Conservatives consistently oppose:

*       Fair Clean Elections and Open Government 

*       Fair Taxes and Competent Spending

*       Investment for Productivity

*       Quality Health, Education, Jobs, Income 

*       Environmental Protection and Energy Independence

*       Security and Equal Rights 

*       Justice and Peace Everywhere

*       International Cooperation and Leadership

<http://www.pugetsoundliberals.org/bootcamp/20ConservativesOpposeOurPrioriti
es.htm> Conservatives oppose all of these  Dave Thomas

  _____  

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of ed feldmanis
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 7:59 PM
To: oe at wedgeblade.net
Subject: [Oe List ...] What do we mean by a right? To Jim, Dave,et.al. re:
Conservativism

Jim,

The most eloquent modern day description that I have seen is in the book
Conscience of a Conservative by Barry Goldwater.

I have to agree with Dave as far as his description goes. Here is where I
found the problem, at least for me: Conservatives may give lip service to
these values, but they intolerantly restrict the freedoms and opportunities
they would offer people different from themselves, often valuing the freedom
of businesses more than the freedom of individuals.  

I find that statement in general to be devastatingly true and possibly
un-American. However, I don't agree that every conservative is merely giving
lip service. My own impression is that Barry Goldwater was very sincere and
specific in his book. At the point of writing the book, in my opinion, there
was some sense in that folks still wanted to make America work for everybody
and they thought they had more common ground than there is today.

For a while it, the Goldwater book, was the standard of what a conservative
was. Conservativism was tied to merit, learning,  service, pay as you go
spending, and the wide spread use of incentives before deciding to create an
agency; and, by the way, there was some sense of what is called state-craft.
If pushed beyond Goldwater to Teddy Roosevelt it was also tied to
conservation.  I think in my time this is as close to having a dynamic -
conservativism- defined in some stability. (Notice some of the liberalism
inherent in the above description.)

Where I really disagree is where many people simply call the new crowd
conservatives; for example, the crowd now in power and mostly Southerners
and their business conspirators. The label, I think, in this case, is a cop
out for the sake of convenience.  In my mind, I can not get the label of
conservative to stick on extremists or people who have neo-fascist ideas.
These are the same people who called Goldwater a liberal. And they are the
so-called conservatives of our day.  I don't buy it, but the press and then
everyone else seems to.

Ed

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