[Oe List ...] Deep culture behind our debate on health care reform
James Wiegel
jfwiegel at yahoo.com
Thu Sep 3 05:52:55 CDT 2009
I can see, from this conversation, how much more is going on in the health care reform debate, and how much more is being added in, so it becomes an "argument about everything" . . . and this is among us, a quite small demographic of people, I think, with a shared history and a "transestablishment" (facilitative) perspective of brining people together for consensus, common vision, etc.
In the project I have been helping with re: combining ICA's ToP and other methods for use in the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, one of the project partners talks about 3 levels of a conflict: conflict over resources, conflict over goals, conflict over identities. Their insight is that once a conflict becomes about identity, there is something non negotiable that enters in to the conversation. Another of the project partners talks about elements of the "deep culture" that fuel conflict -- a "cognitive pathology" and an "emotional pathology" (see below)
Deep Cultures often have elements
which are counterproductive for peace. Two syndromes in particular
can generally be identified. There is a cognitive pathology in Deep
Culture which affects how a society thinks and analyses a conflict.
There is also an Emotional pathology which strongly affect
attitudes.
The Cognitive syndrome, DMA for
short, is centered on Dichotomy (reducing the conflict to 2 conflict
parties only)i,
Manichaeism (where one side is “Good” and one side is “Evil”)
and Armageddon (that there will be a final and inevitable battle in
which Good decisively destroys Evil).
The Emotional syndrome, CGT for
short, is centered on Chosenness (the belief that a group of people
have been chosen by transcendental forces or history for a political
mission), Glory (the myths of past and future glory, underscoring
their Chosenness), and Trauma (the experience of past injuries and
defeats, underscoring the need to pursue their Mission).
iWe
reinforce this syndrome when we call the “Israeli – Palestinian”
identities into the room
Jim
Coincidence is the spiritual equivalent of a pun. G. K. Chesterton
Jim Wiegel
401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
+1 623-936-8671 +1 623-363-3277
jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
--- On Wed, 9/2/09, jonzondo at juno.com <jonzondo at juno.com> wrote:
From: jonzondo at juno.com <jonzondo at juno.com>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] More about the definitions of Liberal and Conservati ve
To: oe at wedgeblade.net
Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 11:15 PM
1)Most conservatives I know support Diebold voting machines. Some make money off of them. And in Washington State, there was conservative resistance to a paper trail.
2) The elections of 2000 and 2004 and the lack of interest in counting every vote.
3) Discussions with my conservative relatives.
4) "Illegal" Phone calls made in several states to my friends of different ethnicities giving false information about the 2008 election, all in an effort to reduce the number of people voting for Obama.
I hope that all people are ready for fair clean elections. That will be a blessing.
Jon Elizondo
You've got to be kidding! Where could you possibly have come up with the idea that conservatives oppose fair clean elections and open government?
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You've got to be kidding! Where could you possibly
have come up with the idea that conservatives oppose fair clean elections and
open government? Part of the huge problem with Obama is that he promised
transparency and hasn't practiced it. And can you possibly know about
Acorn and think the Democrats are all about clean electins? Conservatives
support everything on your list. They just don't support distortion and
manipulation of all those issues.
Susan
From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Dave
Thomas
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 8:49 PM
To:
'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: [Oe List ...] More about the
definitions of Liberal and Conservative
Learn more about
Liberals and the types of Conservatives (Traditional Conservatives,
Libertarians, Christian Conservatives and Neo-Conservatives) who oppose them at
http://www.pugetsoundliberals.org/bootcamp/05AboutLiberals.htm
Also note our Liberal
Priorities, which Conservatives consistently
oppose:
·
Fair Clean Elections and Open
Government
·
Fair Taxes and Competent
Spending
·
Investment for
Productivity
·
Quality Health, Education, Jobs,
Income
·
Environmental Protection and
Energy Independence
·
Security and Equal Rights
·
Justice and Peace
Everywhere
·
International Cooperation and
Leadership
Conservatives oppose all
of these Dave
Thomas
From:
oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of ed feldmanis
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 7:59
PM
To:
oe at wedgeblade.net
Subject: [Oe
List ...] What do we mean by a right? To Jim, Dave,et.al. re:
Conservativism
Jim,
The most eloquent modern day
description that I have seen is in the book Conscience of a Conservative by
Barry Goldwater.
I have to agree with Dave as far as his description
goes. Here is where I found the problem, at least for me: Conservatives may give
lip service to these values, but they intolerantly restrict the freedoms and
opportunities they would offer people different from themselves, often valuing
the freedom of businesses more than the freedom of individuals.
I find that statement in general to be devastatingly true
and possibly un-American. However, I don't agree that every conservative is
merely giving lip service. My own impression is that Barry Goldwater was very
sincere and specific in his book. At the point of writing the book, in my
opinion, there was some sense in that folks still wanted to make America work
for everybody and they thought they had more common ground than there is
today.
For a while it, the Goldwater book, was the standard of what a
conservative was. Conservativism was tied to merit, learning, service, pay
as you go spending, and the wide spread use of incentives before deciding to
create an agency; and, by the way, there was some sense of what is called
state-craft. If pushed beyond Goldwater to Teddy Roosevelt it was also
tied to conservation. I think in my time this is as close to having a
dynamic - conservativism- defined in some stability. (Notice some of the
liberalism inherent in the above description.)
Where I really disagree is
where many people simply call the new crowd conservatives; for example, the
crowd now in power and mostly Southerners and their business conspirators. The
label, I think, in this case, is a cop out for the sake of convenience. In
my mind, I can not get the label of conservative to stick on extremists or
people who have neo-fascist ideas. These are the same people who called
Goldwater a liberal. And they are the so-called conservatives of our day.
I don't buy it, but the press and then everyone else seems
to.
Ed
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