[Oe List ...] Canadian Health System

Fri Sep 4 10:43:27 CDT 2009

 Thanks George,
Charles

-----Original Message-----
From: George Holcombe <geowanda at earthlink.net>
To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Thu, Sep 3, 2009 8:30 pm
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Canadian Health System

There has been the same arguments about Social Security being unsustainable in the U.S. for many years, and if my memory serves me there were disastrous projections about medicare, which added to the defeat of the Clinton's plan. ?I believe predictions are mostly used for political purposes, pro and con. ?I just don't know what we're finally getting at with our way of predicting the future. ?Not only is our health care costs unsustainable, so is our water usage, ground and air pollution, rate of poverty and education system. ?If these issues aren't addressed and the global economy doesn't find new legs, I imagine all bets are off whether you live in Canada, the U.S. or anywhere else. ?The thing I like most about Canada is that it is both local and national and it covers everyone. ?I believe if we had some kind of system like that in the U.S. we would find what we're spending on "health care" would be a lot less and we'd have much better coverage. ?No one so far has commented on the costs for covering very poorly the poor, if you can call that health care. ?Not only do hospitals have to find money for services for those with no insurance (and that care is not always what you might think) and it is charged to us -governments, charities, churches, etc. ?It is finally terribly expensive when you add in the delay of treatment, the police, courts, jails, social services, burglaries, assaults that are directly associated with the illnesses of people without insurance, as well as the bankruptcies of the middle class. ?I haven't seen any figures on this yet, nor have I seen figures that everyone agrees on for any of this. ?At bottom, I believe that this issue like a number of others at the moment, is this nation deciding whether we become a people who just care for ourselves or we care for all. ?My memory is we decide what is necessary and then we figure out the costs and how to raise the money.

George Holcombe

14900 Yellowleaf Tr.

Austin, TX 78728

Home: 512/252-2756

Mobile 512/294-5952

geowanda at earthlink.net

On Sep 3, 2009, at 6:31 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:

George,

The trends you speak about may be true. ?But the trend upward of health costs versus projected income (if there isn't a change in services, taxes or cost reductions) is pretty clear. ?Health costs are going up everywhere, some at a sustainable basis and some not. ?Clearly in the US it is not sustainable and I was asking if that is true for Canada? ?I don't know, but some have said it is. ?So I wouldn't dismiss the question simply because it contains a projection. ?We need facts and data, not opinions. ?So unless there is a counter trend of 'wellness" on its way, which there well may be, then we need to look at the consequences of a continued rise. ?It's 1/6 of the US economy now and projections (sorry about that word) say it's headed for 50% in our lifetime. ? If true, what do we do?

Jack

On Sep 3, 2009, at 6:21 PM, George Holcombe wrote:

How many of our projections, government, scientific institutions, universities, think tanks, etc. have been accurate? ?I remember in the 70's projections of little oil by the 90's, full employment in the 90's, great reductions in poverty, etc. ?None of these have been close. ?I've consulted for a few companies that hired folks, who produced very rosy projections based on "the data." ?A couple of them are no longer in being. ? ?I recall one of the church consultants who projected that the inner city churches I worked with in the 80's would be closed in 5 years, by the data. ?They are all still going. ?What is the role of projections?
?

George Holcombe

14900 Yellowleaf Tr.

Austin, TX 78728

Home: 512/252-2756

Mobile 512/294-5952

geowanda at earthlink.net

On Sep 3, 2009, at 5:19 PM, Jack Gilles wrote:

Bob,

I agree with all of your points. ?But there does seem to be at least SOME people in Canada who are claiming that the present system is not sustainable. ?From what I've read (limited for sure) there are people calling for some type of overall or adjustments to keep all the points you mention fully functioning. ?It may be years away from a crisis, but is it or is it not true that there are issues on its long range sustainability including Provincial funding abilities? ?That's what I'd like to hear from you who obviously is much more aware of the future of Canadian health systems than most of us.

Thanks,

Jack

On Sep 3, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Sandra Rafos wrote:

Well, well, well, I am sorely disappointed to hear that my health care system is on the verge of collapse. ?Someone should inform the Canadian citizenry rather than trying to mislead the people of the US. ?As a dual citizen I am deeply appreciative of the Health Care system in Canada. ?

1. ?Everyone is covered, even landed immigrants, i.e non-citizens.

2. ?Service is provided through your primary physician. ?The choice of a physician is entirely yours.

3. ?The primary physician provides treatment and determines the seriousness of your illness or injury.

4. ?Critical and life threatening cases are referred to hospitals and specialists and treated immediately. ?

5. ?Referrals to specialists for non-life threatening cases wait for treatment or services.

6. ?Annual exams are free as well as a host of preventative tests; mammograms, ekgs, colonoscopy, blood and urine analysis, chest x-rays, bone density scans, etc. ?

7. ?Hospitals and doctors are private. ?

8. ?Fees for procedures are established by the Health Care system, and doctors and hospitals are reimbursed through it.

9. ?All procedures and semi-private hospital room is paid by the Health Care system.

10. ?The price of drugs is established by the government. ?

11. ?Over 65 there is no charge for drugs. ?Younger than 65, there may be modest co-pay. ?

12. ?Many people carry supplemental health care for dental, eyeglasses, massage, chiropractor, private room, travel out-of-country, etc. ?

13. ?People CANNOT sue their doctor. ?Malpractice cases are handled through a board of doctors and health officials. ?The out come of judgements can be fines, suspension of a license for a period of time, or loss of a license permanently. ?

14. ?Ergo, there is no hefty malpractice insurance that has to be carried by doctors, which goes a long way to reducing medical costs.

I have had knee surgery, eye surgery, surgery for pre-cancer conditions, treatment for shingles, flu shots, medications and have never paid for anything. ?

This is not just for me or my family but for everyone. ?I sleep well at night knowing that my friends and neighbors (known or unknown to me) are covered.

My personal view is that healthcare is a RIGHT for everyone, just like a child has a right to an education, or people have a right to clean water, electricity, fuel for home, highways, police and fire protection, etc. ?All of the above are provided for or regulated by the government. ?This is a moral issue, not a financial one, and I hope Obama has the courage to take it to the mat.

I am also clear that if you want a universal system, then it has to be paid for. ?Taxes in Canada are high, and the burden falls heaviest on the wealthiest. ?It is a fair system, and the cost of care per citizen is about 1/2 that of the US and life expectancy is higher than that of the US. ?I have never heard of a family in Canada having to go bankrupt, because they couldn't pay their medical bills. ?

With respect, ?

Bob Rafos

On 2-Sep-09, at 8:02 PM, Susan Fertig wrote:

I heard it repeated several times on different media late last week -- I'll try to find out which Canadian minister it was who was quoted.? Did none of you in ICA Canada hear this?

?

Susan

?

 From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of LAURELCG at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 11:22 AM
To: oe at wedgeblade.net
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] A Matter of Human Rights

In a message dated 9/1/2009 9:31:24 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, susan at gmdtech.com writes:

Canada   has already proclaimed that its health system is unsustainable and has warned   the U.S. against using it as a model.

I wasn't aware of this, Susan. Do you have a source?

Thanks,

Jann

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