[Oe List ...] Want to discuss consensus?
jcwheeler
jcwheeler at frontierland.net
Wed Mar 3 17:56:30 CST 2010
You go,Marianna! Or, maybe a mission for "Living Archival" activities. What a resource, a power and a "Movemental" consciousness! Let it not be wasted.
Didn't someone call this "Convergence!"
Grace and peace,
Jim Wheeler
-----Original Message-----
From: "Marianna Bailey" <wmbailey at charter.net>
Sent 3/3/2010 4:04:03 PM
To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Want to discuss consensus?If you want to know what's going on at
the micro
level of society, (USA) Google Coffee Party USA.It looks like
people are
beginning to wake-up but they do need methods for reaching
consensus.
Maybe this is the time for Town Meetings! Marianna----- Original Message ----- From:Jack
GillesTo:Order Ecumenical CommunitySent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010
11:11
AMSubject: Re: [Oe List ...] Want
to
discuss consensus?
Dear Colleagues,
This is a fine discussion and I harken back to our days (70's?)
when we
asked "What is the new polity system that needs to emerge?". The
SP
triangles are of course important, but they don't help much with the
question
of 'form' or 'method'. Though I would urge people to look at the
Golden
Pathways CD and re-read the two talks on the Political Triangles,
"Political
Theoretics" and "Political Triangles" and you'll see we had some very
helpful
insights. I also remember a paper (actually a rather lengthy
document)
on Order Polity in which we tried to spell out the theoretics and
dynamics of
our self-governance, but I haven't found it yet.But there is a good question when you ask "Who needs to decide
what and
where is that decision located"? For that I turn to our work on
gridding. It has been clear for a long time that in a globally
interdependent world, decisions made by a few people in one place can
dramatically impact people someplace else. It is also been clear
for
some time that the invention of the nation state is less and less the
way the
future needs to have people "assembled" and that the rise of
"regionalism"
around cultural values is becoming more and more powerful. We
are living
in a really messy time where the old structures are ill suited for
governance
and the new ones have yet to take form and many of the really
important
questions are being asked and decisions made in global
corporations.But there is another related issues, and that is the one of the
need for
a global ethic. Because it is now indicative that our actions
(individual and collective) affect so many, it is imperative that we
seek a
common context, a common understanding of our common future. I
am sure
this is ONLY going to happen from the bottom up, therefore, the Town
Meeting
dynamic, with methods of participation, needs to be happening
everywhere. But now back to gridding. I have done considerable work on
this and
I'll not present it all here. As you recall, we had nine levels
for the
world, divided into three dynamics, Globalis, Regionalis, and Localis.
Each of these three had three dynamics, with the center one
being the
key to the other two, and understood primarily as a "cultural" center.
Now each of the nine levels (G.S. CARMP M.P.) is a way to see
the whole
world, that is for example, to see the world in a global sense with a
cultural
screen, you'd divide it into three parts, East, West and South, to see
the
whole world as a collection of highly influential metropolitan centers
you'd
divide the world into 54. There is some form of governance
(decision
making) for each of the dynamics, but the insight was that the
Regionalis was
the key to enabling the flow between the Globalis and the Localis.
People at the local level would have a way to participate in the
whole.
If you examine what we were pointing to with the term "Region"
you'll
see it corresponds closely to the emergence of the present powerful
cultural
movements in the world today. I've seen this especially in India
where
several of the States are breaking into smaller, cultural entities
(Bengal,
Bihar, Tamil Nadu, Maharastra to name a few). It is also true
that in
India these new entities are the source of political power, so that
single
national parties are less and less meaningful and coalitions of these
new
forces are the way governance is happening. But for me, the real creative and exciting governance question
is: "What
is the form of the Localis (polis, micro, parish) Dynamic?"
I
believe the reason we failed in replication in Maharastra is that we
didn't
understand that to create something that would self-replicate you
needed to
work at establishing the "micro" system in the context of the polis
with work
taking place at the parish level. That would have meant doing
the
replication only in one District, with vitalization of the Taluka by
creating
clusters at the local level. We instead were at the Regionalis
level and
you will never get replication happening with those dynamics
(area-region-metro).I'll leave it at that for now. I think there are several
implications for us. One, we do have a lot of wisdom that needs
to be
polished and shared. Secondly, our trans-rational methods of
work,
research and understanding need to be shared. And finally, we
need to do
this, along with our methods and constructs of social analysis,
participation,
spirit and polity, with a the newly emerging awakened global servant
force.
They're out there in large numbers eager for what we have to
share.
We just have to find a form (forum?) to make it happen.
That is
why I believe the work on the ICA Archives in July is so important.
We
can't wait five years to do this kind of work with our common memory.
It
needs to happen soon!!Grace & Peace,JackOn Mar 3, 2010, at 7:37 AM, Herman Greene wrote:Thanks
for the
compliment Carlos. Tim, your thoughts are well taken. While one
could say
that what is going on now is “just politics” I agree with you
that if this
is politics it is standing in the way of consideration of important
issues.Is spirit
of
collaboration and dialogue different than consensus? Certainly on
any large
scale there will not be agreement for example on what to do about
climate
change (a/k/a planetary destabilization). There are ideologies,
cultural and
cultural convictions, psychological factors (from archetypes to
simple
fear), in the case of climate change the ideas that we can manage
nature and
the power of free markets, wildly imperfect knowledge, economic and
other
interests that necessarily make the process messy, though I do think
a
different ethos and spirit of collaboration could change the nature
of the
debate, but not the difficulty of it. I am astounded sometimes when
the hard
fought battles of the past seem to appear as new issues and have to
be
re-fought perhaps in every generation. I thought, for example, that
is was
clear that the framers of the American Constitution wanted
separation of
church and state. Now this is up for debate again, with some arguing
that is
not what they meant.Which
leads back to
what does “participatory government” mean? The Tea Baggers
certainly think
they are participating. On the surface I think the democratic system
(of the
republican nature where people elect representatives) is the best
system.
It’s not consensus by any means, but it does allow for change,
witness the
election of Obama, and earlier of Reagan. Yet no sooner does the
public
elect Obama then they become impatient because the problems are not
solved.
Left goes after the administration for not being Left, Right goes
after the
administration for not being Right. Some would argue that the
corporate and
money interests sail happily along above it all. If this is
democracy it is
messy. (On democracy I always think of you when I see your cousin
(?) Mary
Landrieu at work.)On the
issue of
small group consensus, I have experienced the tyranny of the group
where a
leader of insight is drowned out by the common mind of the past. The
creative is submerged in the way it has been done. I’ve also seen
that those
with charismatic power are the ones who can move the consensus when
things
are stuck and they can have inordinate power that
way.I do know
that
political is more than three triangles on the social process
triangles. It
is an issue of how can wisdom and creativity be given the best
chance to
prevail in a complex, pluralistic world. The three triangles give
areas to
consider but they are only placeholders. While I once was a
political
science graduate student and studied political theory, it has been a
long
time since I have really given deep thought to governance. I am
dealing
tangentially with that now as I consider issues of “Earth
Jurisprudence” and
am presently writing on the rights of nature (I think nature has
rights, but
the more difficult issue is rights in relation to what, and the
value of
wholes and parts). (I’m a very small and inconspicuous voice but
am writing
an article on this.)I won’t
try to wrap
this up, just some thoughts. I will add one more thing, in the book
I
earlier mentioned by David W Orr on Down to the Wire, I think he
rightly
makes the point that ultimately only government has the power to
take the
steps needed to turn the tide on ecological issues. The problems of
course
are governments, governance and what the constituents are prepared
to ask
their governments to do, and the need at some levels for global
governance.HermanFrom: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.ne
t] On Behalf Of Carlos R.
ZervigonSent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010
9:46
PMTo: 'Order
Ecumenical Community'Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Want to
discuss
consensus?TimFor not
being well
thought out, WOW!Carlos R. Zervigon,
PMPZervigon International,
Ltd.817
Antonine St.New
Orleans, LA 70115 USA504 894-9868 Mobile: 504
908-0762carlos at zervigon.comhttp://www.zervigon.comFrom: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net
[mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.ne
t] On Behalf Of Tim
CasswellSent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010
6:50
PMTo: Order
Ecumenical CommunitySubject: Re: [Oe List ...] Want to
discuss
consensus?I
think this is
an interesting debate. It has produced a heartfelt if not altogether
thought
through meditation of my own...
As
we go towards
a hung parliament in the UK we are facing a period
where
consensus and collaboration will be precisely the process skills
that are
needed. In almost every other country apart from the USA the democratic process is
multiparty coalition government. In our two party polarisation we
watch our
politicians stuck into their party lines locking horns as if they
wete in
court in a shockingly wasteful display of adversarial
stupidity. As
we face the
complexity of global financial, ecological, political, and resource
challenges it will be probably through conflict but just maybe
through
collaboration that we work out our
salvation. I
am weary of
the "Reality" TV gameshow approach the personality politicians adopt
which
effectively excludes us from the social process other than as
consumer -
voters. The situation
before us now requires collaboration. I yearn for a politician or a
party
that declares a stand for
consensus.A
party that
declares that the global financial, ecological, political, and
resource situation we face is so complex, so critical, it is a
state of
catastrophe in which we all are faced with the choice of caring for
one
another or competing, looting, and fighting with one another over
broken
pieces and depleted resources.
The adventure we
face today is so overwhelming it probably cannot be won or even
survived.
However I know which way I want to die. In a community of people
listening,
caring, dancing, chancing, cherishing, in a slow,
frustrating, exquisite, subtle, elusive, consensual community
of human
relationships Community is still the most fascinating dance of all.
I
think the tide
is turning. We are tired of the adversarial alpha male good shepherd
rhetoric we once admired and flocked to in our herds. Now we know it
really
is in our hands and we have a choice. Consensus, collaboration,
trust,
listening, understanding, generosity, responsibility, and decisions
based on
love, or conflict, suspicion, hostility, hoarding, and decisions
based on
fear. I
long for a
politician to declare "I stand for consensus. If you elect me it is
because
you know I can do nothing for you just that you dare to share a
dream of a
collaborative sharing world where rights are what we give rather
than fight
for. Voting for me is a vote not for what you can get but for what
you can
give and a declaration that we are choosing to take up the challenge
of this
awesome moment ourselves" Wasn't this the
language of MLK and
Ghandhi? I
see again the
scene towards the end of that film where the field is full of people
who
were once slaves declaring "I am Spartacus". Slaves no longer to
charisma,
power, manipulative political forces. The complexity of the
catastrophe
makes it simple. This is the time for each to dream and if you let
me be in
your dream you can be in
mine. Let's dance with
Zorba let's sing with don Quixote, let's shout our dreams to the
empty sky
with Thelma and Louise, and work out our consensus with
diligence.Consensus is not
the abandonment of beliefs. It is the art of human
being.
Tim Casswellcreativeconnection.co.uk07956 851
852
On 2 Mar 2010, at 02:43, "Carlos R.
Zervigon"
<carloszervigon at gmail.com>
wrote:If you
are pure
in your stance you finally are a group of one that can get nothing
done.
Stand on your principles and be ineffective. Politics is a healthy
science
that acknowledges that we live in community and must make decision
s as
such. Effective and creative leadership helps form consensus on a
creative, inclusive, depth and futuristic context but does not
bully it’s
way through charismatic demagoguery. Margaret Thatcher was a
guardian of
the illusionary past and did not contribute much to a future for
the
planet. Herman Greene however has made his mark many dimensions
above
Margaret.Carlos R. Zervigon,
PMPZervigon International,
Ltd.817
Antonine St.New
Orleans, LA 70115 USA504 894-9868 Mobile: 504
908-0762carlos at zervigon.comhttp://www.zervigon.comFrom: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.ne
t] On Behalf Of Herman
GreeneSent: Monday, March 01, 2010
11:00
AMTo: 'Order
Ecumenical Community'Subject: [Oe List ...] Want to
discuss
consensus?I
received this morning meditation
today:Lord, guard me
in my convictions.
"To me consensus seems to be the process
of
abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies in search
of
something in which no one believes, but to which no one
objects--the
process of avoiding the very issues that have to be solved merely
because
you cannot get agreement on the way ahead. What great cause would
have
been fought and won under the banner 'I stand for consensus?'"
<image001.gif>-- Margaret Thatcher in a 1981 speech as
reported
in 001euju4wgw3exakbdtbm2ehjlxgb3yxbf-t0tt45xntpymcjchoa9cvglqcnavsn6aakstc-="" kjnqdp3cykq8pbncoleoj8iuyqfctahsyolp0="href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103092727795&s=3496&e=" margin:="" 0in="" 0pt;=""font-family:="" times="" new="" roman="" ;=""font-size:="" 12pt="">001euju4wgw3exakbdtbm2ehjlxgb3yxbf-t0tt45xntpymcjchoa9cvglqcnavsn6aakstc-="" kjnqdp3cykq8pbncoleoj8iuyqfctahsyolp0="href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103092727795&s=3496&e=" margin:="" 0in="" 0pt;=""font-family:="" times="" new="" roman="" ;=""font-size:="" 12pt=""> 001euju4wgw3exakbdtbm2ehjlxgb3yxbf-t0tt45xntpymcjchoa9cvglqcnavsn6aakstc-="" kjnqdp3cykq8pbncoleoj8iuyqfctahsyolp0="href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103092727795&s=3496&e=" margin:="" 0in="" 0pt;=""font-family:="" times="" new="" roman="" ;=""font-size:="" 12pt="">001euju4wgw3exakbdtbm2ehjlxgb3yxbf-t0tt45xntpymcjchoa9cvglqcnavsn6aakstc-="" kjnqdp3cykq8pbncoleoj8iuyqfctahsyolp0="href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103092727795&s=3496&e=" margin:="" 0in="" 0pt;=""font-family:="" times="" new="" roman="" ;=""font-size:="" 12pt=""> 001euju4wgw3exakbdtbm2ehjlxgb3yxbf-t0tt45xntpymcjchoa9cvglqcnavsn6aakstc-="" kjnqdp3cykq8pbncoleoj8iuyqfctahsyolp0="href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103092727795&s=3496&e=" margin:="" 0in="" 0pt;=""font-family:="" times="" new="" roman="" ;=""font-size:="" 12pt="">_____________________________________________001euju4wgw3exakbdtbm2ehjlxgb3yxbf-t0tt45xntpymcjchoa9cvglqcnavsn6aakstc-="" kjnqdp3cykq8pbncoleoj8iuyqfctahsyolp0="href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103092727795&s=3496&e=" margin:="" 0in="" 0pt;=""font-family:="" times="" new="" roman="" ;=""font-size:="" 12pt=""> 001euju4wgw3exakbdtbm2ehjlxgb3yxbf-t0tt45xntpymcjchoa9cvglqcnavsn6aakstc-="" kjnqdp3cykq8pbncoleoj8iuyqfctahsyolp0="href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103092727795&s=3496&e=" margin:="" 0in="" 0pt;=""font-family:="" times="" new="" roman="" ;=""font-size:="" 12pt="">001euju4wgw3exakbdtbm2ehjlxgb3yxbf-t0tt45xntpymcjchoa9cvglqcnavsn6aakstc-="" kjnqdp3cykq8pbncoleoj8iuyqfctahsyolp0="href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103092727795&s=3496&e=" margin:="" 0in="" 0pt;=""font-family:="" times="" new="" roman="" ;=""font-size:="" 12pt=""> 001euju4wgw3exakbdtbm2ehjlxgb3yxbf-t0tt45xntpymcjchoa9cvglqcnavsn6aakstc-="" kjnqdp3cykq8pbncoleoj8iuyqfctahsyolp0="href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103092727795&s=3496&e=" margin:="" 0in="" 0pt;=""font-family:="" times="" new="" roman="" ;=""font-size:="" 12pt="">Herman
F. Greene001euju4wgw3exakbdtbm2ehjlxgb3yxbf-t0tt45xntpymcjchoa9cvglqcnavsn6aakstc-="" kjnqdp3cykq8pbncoleoj8iuyqfctahsyolp0="href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103092727795&s=3496&e=" margin:="" 0in="" 0pt;=""font-family:="" times="" new="" roman="" ;=""font-size:="" 12pt=""> 001euju4wgw3exakbdtbm2ehjlxgb3yxbf-t0tt45xntpymcjchoa9cvglqcnavsn6aakstc-="" kjnqdp3cykq8pbncoleoj8iuyqfctahsyolp0="href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103092727795&s=3496&e=" margin:="" 0in="" 0pt;=""font-family:="" times="" new="" roman="" ;=""font-size:="" 12pt="">2516 Winningham
Drive001euju4wgw3exakbdtbm2ehjlxgb3yxbf-t0tt45xntpymcjchoa9cvglqcnavsn6aakstc-="" kjnqdp3cykq8pbncoleoj8iuyqfctahsyolp0="href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103092727795&s=3496&e=" margin:="" 0in="" 0pt;=""font-family:="" times="" new="" roman="" ;=""font-size:="" 12pt=""> 001euju4wgw3exakbdtbm2ehjlxgb3yxbf-t0tt45xntpymcjchoa9cvglqcnavsn6aakstc-="" kjnqdp3cykq8pbncoleoj8iuyqfctahsyolp0="href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103092727795&s=3496&e=" margin:="" 0in="" 0pt;=""font-family:="" times="" new="" roman="" ;=""font-size:="" 12pt="">Chapel
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