[Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative

Sat Nov 27 13:54:00 CST 2010

I agree with the realists' intellectual assumption that there is the world as it is.  But that's what it seems to be, an assumption, based on limited experience of the reality it seeks to describe.  Who has ever experienced the world as it is without pulling it through ones own finite and limited screens and experiences.  It's not that our views and stories are wrong (although some may be), they just never tell the whole story, which is why we are continuously learning and our views and stories are constantly evolving.  If that were not true we would always do as we have always done (and always get what we always got, as the cliche goes.)  The only people who don't seem to get that are the fundamentalists, of whatever discipline.

--- On Sat, 11/27/10, Herman Greene <hfgreene at mindspring.com> wrote:

From: Herman Greene <hfgreene at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative
To: "'Order Ecumenical Community'" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Saturday, November 27, 2010, 1:38 PM

I agree with your point. But also with the idea that there is the world as it is.

In philosophy it’s known as the realist (there is a reality we all share) and the subjectivist (reality is different for each person) positions.

If you take the subjectivist position, then explain indicative is the imperative.

(Like most of these things there is truth in the realist and the subjectivist position.)

Herman

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of R Williams
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 2:31 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative

Herman,

Does anyone in fact "see the world as it is"?   Doesn't everyone rather "see the world as they see the world."  I.e., is there any world view that is not subjective?  I would caution that our "views of the world," much like our "stories of reality," are not "the world" and are not "reality."  They are our views and stories.  In fact, isn't that what Brooks is trying to say about Tolstoy, that he forgot, or never knew, that his views and stories were perceptions, and thus presented them as the "real thing" and insisted that everyone receive them as such?  My guess is that Tolstoy did not allow people to see the world as it is, but rather to see it as he saw it.

Help me out here.  I may be way off base.

Randy

--- On Sat, 11/27/10, Herman Greene <hfgreene at mindspring.com> wrote:

From: Herman Greene <hfgreene at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative
To: "' Order Ecumenical Community '" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Saturday, November 27, 2010, 10:47 AM

I was thinking more about Tolstoy’s power of description as a novelist and as explained by Brooks. Nothing more. 
His description, became the imperative (framed every subsequent choice).

I didn’t think of his description as having a subjective bias so one is led to “see the world as Tolstoy saw it” rather I thought Tolstoy’s description allowed peoples to see the world as it is. 

Herman 

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Susan Fertig
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 11:39 AM
To: ' Order Ecumenical Community '
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative

Hmmm, maybe I didn’t quite understand what Brooks was saying. I can often be persuaded to understand another’s point of view (see the world as he does) without adopting it; and while I’d like to think that if I understand the other point of view I would then consider it in subsequent decisions, I can’t say that is always the case. But I like Jim’s observation that once you engage your reality changes. 

Susan

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of James Wiegel
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 8:27 AM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Cc: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative

He kind of makes the case for poets and activists living in separate worlds, and for the human agony that you can't do much as an observer, and once you engage in doing something,  what you see is way different . . .

Jim Wiegel

Jfwiegel at yahoo.com

On Nov 26, 2010, at 7:36, "Herman Greene" <hgreene at greenelawnc.com> wrote:

This quote from David Brook’s Op-Ed today:

“In middle age, it was as a novelist that Tolstoy achieved his most lasting influence. After all, description is prescription. If you can get people to see the world as you do, you have unwittingly framed every subsequent choice.” 

 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/opinion/26brooks.html?_r=1&hp 
_____________________________________________ 
Herman F. Greene, Esq. 
Greene Law, PLLC 
2516 Winningham Drive 
Chapel Hill, NC 27516 
919-624-0579 (ph) 
919-942-4358 (f) 
Skype: hgreene-nc 
hgreene at greenelawnc.com 
www.greenelawnc.com 

The contents of this message may be privileged or confidential.  If you are not an intended recipient or believe you have received the message in error, please notify the sender, delete the message, and do not copy or otherwise disseminate it.  

IRS Circular 230 Notice: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code, or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein. 

_______________________________________________
OE mailing list
OE at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3281 - Release Date: 11/26/10
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
OE mailing list
OE at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3283 - Release Date: 11/27/10
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
OE mailing list
OE at wedgeblade.net
http://wedgeblade.net/mailman/listinfo/oe_wedgeblade.net

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wedgeblade.net/pipermail/oe_wedgeblade.net/attachments/20101127/4e8ede4b/attachment-0001.html>