[Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative

Sat Nov 27 14:44:56 CST 2010

Your're probably onto me.

We talk about days, not sure what that means to God.

Susan

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Herman Greene
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 3:29 PM
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative

I'm guessing you are more "orthodox" than fundamentalist, but it's only a
guess.

Do you believe the world was made in six days?

Herman

  _____  

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Susan Fertig
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 3:16 PM
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative

Curious that you have that assumption about fundamentalists, but I guess
that just proves your second sentence, i.e., you are operating out of
limited experience just like everyone else.

Oh, by the way, despite marinating in the Order for nearly 40 years, I am
probably what you'd call a fundamentalist in theological terms.

Susan

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of R Williams
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 2:54 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative

I agree with the realists' intellectual assumption that there is the world
as it is.  But that's what it seems to be, an assumption, based on limited
experience of the reality it seeks to describe.  Who has ever experienced
the world as it is without pulling it through ones own finite and limited
screens and experiences.  It's not that our views and stories are wrong
(although some may be), they just never tell the whole story, which is why
we are continuously learning and our views and stories are constantly
evolving.  If that were not true we would always do as we have always done
(and always get what we always got, as the cliche goes.)  The only people
who don't seem to get that are the fundamentalists, of whatever discipline.

--- On Sat, 11/27/10, Herman Greene <hfgreene at mindspring.com> wrote:

From: Herman Greene <hfgreene at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative
To: "'Order Ecumenical Community'" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Saturday, November 27, 2010, 1:38 PM

I agree with your point. But also with the idea that there is the world as
it is.

In philosophy it's known as the realist (there is a reality we all share)
and the subjectivist (reality is different for each person) positions.

If you take the subjectivist position, then explain indicative is the
imperative.

(Like most of these things there is truth in the realist and the
subjectivist position.)

Herman

  _____  

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of R Williams
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 2:31 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative

Herman,

Does anyone in fact "see the world as it is"?   Doesn't everyone rather "see
the world as they see the world."  I.e., is there any world view that is not
subjective?  I would caution that our "views of the world," much like our
"stories of reality," are not "the world" and are not "reality."  They are
our views and stories.  In fact, isn't that what Brooks is trying to say
about Tolstoy, that he forgot, or never knew, that his views and stories
were perceptions, and thus presented them as the "real thing" and insisted
that everyone receive them as such?  My guess is that Tolstoy did not allow
people to see the world as it is, but rather to see it as he saw it.

Help me out here.  I may be way off base.

Randy

--- On Sat, 11/27/10, Herman Greene <hfgreene at mindspring.com> wrote:

From: Herman Greene <hfgreene at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative
To: "' Order Ecumenical Community '" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Saturday, November 27, 2010, 10:47 AM

I was thinking more about Tolstoy's power of description as a novelist and
as explained by Brooks. Nothing more. 

His description, became the imperative (framed every subsequent choice).

I didn't think of his description as having a subjective bias so one is led
to "see the world as Tolstoy saw it" rather I thought Tolstoy's description
allowed peoples to see the world as it is. 

Herman 

  _____  

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Susan Fertig
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 11:39 AM
To: ' Order Ecumenical Community '
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative

Hmmm, maybe I didn't quite understand what Brooks was saying. I can often be
persuaded to understand another's point of view (see the world as he does)
without adopting it; and while I'd like to think that if I understand the
other point of view I would then consider it in subsequent decisions, I
can't say that is always the case. But I like Jim's observation that once
you engage your reality changes. 

Susan

From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of James Wiegel
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 8:27 AM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Cc: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative

He kind of makes the case for poets and activists living in separate worlds,
and for the human agony that you can't do much as an observer, and once you
engage in doing something,  what you see is way different . . .

Jim Wiegel

Jfwiegel at yahoo.com
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Jfwiegel@yahoo.com> 

On Nov 26, 2010, at 7:36, "Herman Greene" <hgreene at greenelawnc.com
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hgreene@greenelawnc.com> >
wrote:

This quote from David Brook's Op-Ed today:

"In middle age, it was as a novelist that Tolstoy achieved his most lasting
influence. After all, description is prescription. If you can get people to
see the world as you do, you have unwittingly framed every subsequent
choice." 

 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/opinion/26brooks.html?_r=1
<http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/opinion/26brooks.html?_r=1&hp> &hp 

_____________________________________________ 

Herman F. Greene, Esq. 

Greene Law, PLLC 

2516 Winningham Drive 

Chapel Hill, NC 27516 

919-624-0579 (ph) 

919-942-4358 (f) 

Skype: hgreene-nc 

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