[Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative
M. George Walters
m.george.walters at verizon.net
Sat Nov 27 21:42:45 CST 2010
I probably missed some pieces in this dialog but I have always been a fan of
the Indicative/Imperative. Not to confuse it with objectivity/subjectivity,
but I wonder if it is something like, from an Orthodox point of view, "If
your neighbor's ox falls in the ditch, help him get it out". This is what I
do with my next door neighbor in the neighborhood here. The objective fact
is the ox is in the ditch - we all see it there - it is not a matter of
perception unless someone is blind and just doesn't see it or thinks the
ditch is just a small grassy valley.
But where it gets complex is "Global warming, cool it off (how?)" i.e., how
to get everybody to do their part in the total global neighborhood. And then
there is the debate about whether or not it is true, even though scientific
measurements of steadily increasing temperatures, receding ice caps and
rising ocean levels are documented. Maybe it is just a trend and mother
nature will self-correct, so why worry about it. Now perception or more
likely opinion, if I am an industry mogul and changing my ways is more money
than I want to spend can take over the debate. And the political debate - my
country isn't going to act unless your country act's. And then the silly
debate, "we all agreed, yes, but you cheated so I am not going to do what I
said I would."
Fundamentally, I believe only a few are going to act on behalf of the many
and they need a way to get as close to an objective picture of the realities
they are dealing with as possible so their care is not frustrated by
academic debate, however informative it may be. The question is the same -
will you act with what you believe you know, however imperfect your
knowledge, and live with the consequences and probability that you will know
more later? Evil will most likely adapt to the change you create and offer
you a new contradiction tomorrow.
With kindest regards.
M. George Walters
Resurgence Publishing Corporation
4240 Sandy Shores Dr
Lutz, FL 33558
USA
Tel: +1 (813) 948-7267
Fax: +1 (813) 333-1787
Mob: +1 (813) 505-9041
URL: www.ResurgencePublishing.com
Professional Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mgwalters
From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Herman Greene
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 15:08
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative
I have no problem with your reply.
I would be interested in your reflection on "the indicative is the
imperative"
What is the reality represented by the word "indicative"?
_____
From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of R Williams
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 2:54 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative
I agree with the realists' intellectual assumption that there is the world
as it is. But that's what it seems to be, an assumption, based on limited
experience of the reality it seeks to describe. Who has ever experienced
the world as it is without pulling it through ones own finite and limited
screens and experiences. It's not that our views and stories are wrong
(although some may be), they just never tell the whole story, which is why
we are continuously learning and our views and stories are constantly
evolving. If that were not true we would always do as we have always done
(and always get what we always got, as the cliche goes.) The only people
who don't seem to get that are the fundamentalists, of whatever discipline.
--- On Sat, 11/27/10, Herman Greene <hfgreene at mindspring.com> wrote:
From: Herman Greene <hfgreene at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative
To: "'Order Ecumenical Community'" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Saturday, November 27, 2010, 1:38 PM
I agree with your point. But also with the idea that there is the world as
it is.
In philosophy it's known as the realist (there is a reality we all share)
and the subjectivist (reality is different for each person) positions.
If you take the subjectivist position, then explain indicative is the
imperative.
(Like most of these things there is truth in the realist and the
subjectivist position.)
Herman
_____
From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of R Williams
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 2:31 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative
Herman,
Does anyone in fact "see the world as it is"? Doesn't everyone rather "see
the world as they see the world." I.e., is there any world view that is not
subjective? I would caution that our "views of the world," much like our
"stories of reality," are not "the world" and are not "reality." They are
our views and stories. In fact, isn't that what Brooks is trying to say
about Tolstoy, that he forgot, or never knew, that his views and stories
were perceptions, and thus presented them as the "real thing" and insisted
that everyone receive them as such? My guess is that Tolstoy did not allow
people to see the world as it is, but rather to see it as he saw it.
Help me out here. I may be way off base.
Randy
--- On Sat, 11/27/10, Herman Greene <hfgreene at mindspring.com> wrote:
From: Herman Greene <hfgreene at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative
To: "' Order Ecumenical Community '" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Date: Saturday, November 27, 2010, 10:47 AM
I was thinking more about Tolstoy's power of description as a novelist and
as explained by Brooks. Nothing more.
His description, became the imperative (framed every subsequent choice).
I didn't think of his description as having a subjective bias so one is led
to "see the world as Tolstoy saw it" rather I thought Tolstoy's description
allowed peoples to see the world as it is.
Herman
_____
From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of Susan Fertig
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 11:39 AM
To: ' Order Ecumenical Community '
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative
Hmmm, maybe I didn't quite understand what Brooks was saying. I can often be
persuaded to understand another's point of view (see the world as he does)
without adopting it; and while I'd like to think that if I understand the
other point of view I would then consider it in subsequent decisions, I
can't say that is always the case. But I like Jim's observation that once
you engage your reality changes.
Susan
From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf
Of James Wiegel
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 8:27 AM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Cc: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Very close to the indicative is the imperative
He kind of makes the case for poets and activists living in separate worlds,
and for the human agony that you can't do much as an observer, and once you
engage in doing something, what you see is way different . . .
Jim Wiegel
Jfwiegel at yahoo.com
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Jfwiegel@yahoo.com>
On Nov 26, 2010, at 7:36, "Herman Greene" <hgreene at greenelawnc.com
<http://us.mc593.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hgreene@greenelawnc.com> >
wrote:
This quote from David Brook's Op-Ed today:
"In middle age, it was as a novelist that Tolstoy achieved his most lasting
influence. After all, description is prescription. If you can get people to
see the world as you do, you have unwittingly framed every subsequent
choice."
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/opinion/26brooks.html?_r=1
<http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/opinion/26brooks.html?_r=1&hp> &hp
_____________________________________________
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