[Oe List ...] FW: Landmark Education News

Mon Oct 11 16:28:35 CDT 2010

Sent privately the following to Marsha after her posting to affirm that we all share the ambivalence but the root is more than just ackward realization that we belonged to a rotten organization and would easily shudder when confronted by similar outfits.

Sharing it with listserve as another off-the-cuff comment.

Marsha,

It was not so much that the Order had negative and positive features; it was our unwillingness to practice the unequivocal and unqualified acceptance that we were theologically so lucid about but could not practice 'cause we were the very demonstration of what we said was the inability to shake off our ancient prejudices, whether it be the moralism of our upbringing or just the plain diversity of the "good manners" of our family and cultural backgrounds.

EST, RS1, and the evangelical movements all stem from having justified the means by the ends, an easy enough fruit of the tree in the garden that we were just full of.

What matters is if we have moved an inch away from those prejudices in the current practices of the engagements we now belong.

Have we added value to the products and services we now market?

The skeptics amongst us will always say, Nah!  The crazy ones will always say, "moving on along."

Jaime

-----Original Message-----
From: Sunny Walker <sunwalker at comcast.net>
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community' <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Tue, Oct 12, 2010 5:20 am
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] FW: Landmark Education News

Amen!

Sunny
Sunny Walker
303-671-0704
Cell: 303-587-3017
sunwalker at comcast.net

Opening windows that freshideas may revive us and our lives have meaning

From:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Carlos R. Zervigon
Sent: Monday, October 11, 201011:26 AM
To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] FW:Landmark Education News

Marsha

Your post might be arefreshing indication of how many of us share the ambivalence of the orderexperience and yet are bound to each other by the profound impact that itnonetheless had on our lives. In moments of reflection about this I catchmyself as having been victim and the malaise at the same time. Thank God forhis grace.

Carlos R. Zervigon, PMP
Zervigon International, Ltd.
817 Antonine St.
New Orleans, LA  70115  USA
504 894-9868 Mobile: 504 908-0762
carlos at zervigon.com
http://www.zervigon.com

From:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of Marsha Hahn
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 20109:09 PM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] FW:Landmark Education News

I can see how my choiceof "yuck" might have been offensive, and I apologize.  Myexperience of the recruiting attempt was that the message being conveyed seemedgood.  It was the means by which it was delivered, and a sense of being manipulatedand not being dealt with honestly, that I found myself unable totolerate.  I was aware, even at the time, that it was echoing similarexperiences of being in the Order, and my radar went on high alert.  Thatwas what sent me out the door.  I agree that a lot of the criticisms thathave been expressed about the Forum could be similarly applied to theOrder.  Good vision and intent - sometimes unhealthy and even damagingmeans of carrying those things out.  As I said, I only experienced therecruiting attempt, and not any of the actual programs or work, so that is allI am speaking to.

Over the years, my feelings about the Order have softened and blurred so that Ican allow the negative and positive aspects to co-exist in a pretty lovingstate.  However, when I have bumped into anything new (such as myencounter with the Forum) that evokes the damaging parts, I am unlikely to giveit a chance.

Interesting conversation.  Thanks for all of the perspectives.

Marsha

From: Sunny Walker <sunwalker at comcast.net>
To: Order Ecumenical Community <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 1:45:35PM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] FW:Landmark Education News

Thanks, Tracey, for this honest commentary. I find the "yuck"comments (even
though I also found the Forum style obnoxiously arrogant - something I
recognized as just as odious within the Order) not at all helpful. We of the
Order have to expand our love, not our judgments (sometimes I think it was
what we had best perfected!). Ready to see us "move on". I and I'd bet
others (women I know for sure) left for just some of these reasons - and we
can move out of the Order, yet there are things of the Order that can't be
taken out of us (the old Salemcigarette commercial).

P.S. Saw your "I like it" at the soulful women site. Interested intaking up
again the work with the feminine archetypes.

Sunny
Sunny Walker
303-671-0704
Cell: 303-587-3017
sunwalker at comcast.net 

Opening windows that fresh ideas may revive us and our lives have meaning
-----Original Message-----
From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net[mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net]On Behalf
Of Tracy E. Longacre
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:30 AM
To: Order Ecumenical Community
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] FW: Landmark Education News

There's so much I could say. But I'll just say that as someone who
came into the Order fairly young and went from the Order to the Hunger
Project (actually one of the best, most authentic manifestations of
the principles of the Forum, IMHO, for all it's frailties) and a lot
of involvement with Werner Erhard & Assoc and Landmark Education, I
just gotta say -- I found the Hunger Project and WE&A far more
psychologically, physically and psychically healthy than the Order. We
had good theologically but a lot of other things were pretty, uhm,
"whack" as they say.

On 07/10/2010, A.M. Noel <amnoel at comcast.net> wrote:
> I olve the conversation about Landmark Yes I am involved with Landmark
> Eduction and the only committment is to transform life.
>
> A.M. Noel
> 206-321-6274
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marsha Hahn" <mhahn013 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "Order Ecumenical Community"<oe at wedgeblade.net>
> Sent: Monday, October 4, 2010 11:15:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] FW: Landmark Education News
>
>
>
> Ditto my own experience.  Several years ago an acquaintance invitedme to
> her home to learn about a "leadership program."  I wasnaturally
intrigued.
> It turned out to be Landmark Forum, which I had never heard ofbefore.  At
> some point during the presentation something clicked for me and I made the
> association with Werner Erhardt (sp?).  I asked the presenter ifthere was
a
> connection.  She looked very flustered (not my intention, butinteresting)
> and gave me a vague answer.  The more we got into it, the more my "yuck"
> button was getting pressed.  It was getting late, and I decided toexcuse
> myself.  The other invitees promptly followed me out the door andshared
> their reactions similar to my own.
>
> However, I do know people who have found their work very beneficial,
> including at least one former Order colleague.  It just wasn't forme.
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
> From: Herman Greene <hfgreene at mindspring.com>
> To: Order Ecumenical Community<oe at wedgeblade.net>
> Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 12:43:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] FW: Landmark Education News
>
>
>
>
> A week ago Sunday I was out running and an old friend recognized me and
> stopped his car. He said he was on his way to a Landmark Presentation that
> he was leading on my street and asked me to come over. I didn’t know what
it
> was about, but thought I would stop in after my run. I ran pass the house
he
> was in and he saw me and came out to the street and asked me to come in
> right then. I said to myself, “Who knows, maybe this is something I should
> know about.” In my sweaty running clothes I went in and there were two
other
> newcomers. We were asked to right down problem areas in our life and
share.
> About five minutes into that I said, “I’m feeling this is not where I
should
> be this afternoon” and left.
>
>
>
> These guys were a little like RS-I recruiters.
>
>
>
> Herman
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net[mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net]On
Behalf
> Of W. J.
> Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 12:55 PM
> To: Order Ecumenical Community
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] FW: Landmark Education News
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, ICAwas mentioned in the Hunger Project materials. Maybe Joe Thomas
did
> that. Don't remember exactly, so don't hold me to it.
>
>
> I think the point of the Hunger Project was if they talked enough about
> eliminating global hunger and raised enough money to keep talking about it
> more and more, then that alone would raise consciousness enough to
eliminate
> global hunger. Or something like that. Voila! Gone. Amazing.
>
>
> A.M. Novel used to be very big on Landmark Education. Wonder what he
thinks
> of it now.
>
>
> Marshall
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: frank bremner <fjbremner at hotmail.com>
> To: Dialogue OE <oe at wedgeblade.net>
> Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 11:45:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] FW: Landmark Education News
>
> Dear colleagues
>
> There was a rumour around, in the late 70s, that Werner Erhard
> (originally Jack Rosenberg) had done RS-I.  I found no referenceto this
in
> any of the books about est (Erhard Seminars Training, or Latin for"it
is"?)
> or Werner Erhard that I came across at that time.  But he did do alot of
> homework before setting up his organisation.
>
>
> I took the est   training in late 1978 or early 1979, in Chicago .  The
same
> things that impressed Beret and Ron impressed me.  Of course, at thattime
> anything remotely psychological was O:E/EI/ICA heresy.
>
> I did a followup course in Philadelphiain 1979-80, and another one in
> Adelaidein 1980-81.  They were disappointing, with very litle new content
> or processes.  They assumed that doing another course was the only"next
> step" that was OK, while successive courses just concentrated ondoing
more
> courses, and on recruiting people to the basic est   training. The
> volunteer and paid assistants were very poor at participating in
discussion
> or dialogue around the edges - they behaved like the " est-ies "of the
> various caricatures and sendups of them in the movies.  Very much"Join
our
> movement - it's the best!" in style.
>
> So: at least one good event, but a crap organisation.  [I remember an
> Anglican clergyman saying something similar about EI about 1973: "Great
> ideas, great courses, but I don't think much of the organisation."]
>
> Worth reading: Luke Rinehart's Book of Est , and Bill Bartley's book about
> Werner Erhard.  Nothing else I came across took "the work"seriously
enough
> to do a thorough commentary and critique - most articles and books never
got
> inside the est  mindset, and its interplay of Zen Buddhist thought,
> psychology, and the middle-class audience, to be worth much.  I wastrying
> to write some papers on "the consciousness movement" at thetime, before
> Peter Russell or Marilyn Ferguson achieved any prominence, and I came
across
> so much sensationalist garbage in my research.  A colleague saidrecently:
> "All organisations and movements have their blind spots".
>
> I have heard little about Landmark Education , as the organisation is now
> known.  The est Seminar   has been replaced by The Forum , andhas a small
> (?) Australian presence.
>
> In the 1980s, the library at the high school where I was teaching received
a
> thick volume about global hunger, as thanks for letting someone speak to a
> lunchtime meeting about The Hunger Project , an endeavour set up by the
est
> organisation.  It covered a variety of approaches, includingcomprehensive
> community/human development.  And in one of the Project's newslettersI
saw
> a mention of the ICA work in Maharashtra State , India ; so there was some
> information transferred there - did Werner of somebody visit India ?. One
> of the Project's themes was "the possibility of eradicatinghunger".  Now
> there are T-shirts and so on on this theme - if smallpox can be
eradicated,
> why not hunger?  Etc.
>
> Cheers
>
> Frank Bremner
>
>
>
> Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 22:17:07 -0500
> To: oe at wedgeblade.net
> From: beretgriffith at charter.net
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] FW: Landmark Education News
>
> I don't think there was any connection between RS-1 and EST. Ron and I
took
> the EST training in Chicagoin 1976 or 1977. Marshall's take is on
target.
> Ron and I both felt the EST training was a unique avenue to getting people
> to look at their lives rather than escaping from life. It was far more
> aggressive than any thing EI/ICA did with people and I think it was an
> avenue of transformation of many people. There were about three hundred
> people in the training we took. The trainers were outstanding. In any EST
> event I attended trainers used no notes, the set-up impeccable, and no
> excuses were accepted for anything. While at the EST training we became
> acquainted with an interesting couple. We brought them over the Kemper to
> see the ICA. They were more interested in getting us to go to additional
> programs than in the ICA. We did not keep up the connection with them.
The
> EST enrollment tactics were high pressure.
>
> There is a film out on his life which I have seen. Enjoyed it. There is a
> site with his quotes.A sample: “Happiness is a function of accepting what
> is. Love is a function of communication. Health is a function of
> participation.  Self expression is a function of responsibility.”
>
>
> -Werner Erhard
>
> I think Erhard is an interesting character. Here is a bit on him from
> http://www.wernererhard.net/
> For nearly 40 years Werner Erhard has been the creator of innovative ideas
> and models of individual, organizational, and social transformation. His
> ideas and models have been the source of new perspectives for thinkers and
> practitioners in fields as diverse as business, education, philosophy,
> medicine, psychotherapy, third world development, conflict resolution ,
and
> community building.  He has created new ways of seeing things inareas
where
> progress has stalled or where breakthroughs would make a significant
> difference.  A majority of the Fortune 100 companies and manyfoundations
> and governmental entities have used his ideas and models.  Fortune
> Magazine’s 40th anniversary issue (May 15, 1995), in examining the major
> contributions to management thinking, recognized Erhard’s ideas as one of
> the major innovations of the last few decades.
>
> While Werner Erhard may be best known to the general public for
applications
> derived from his models including The est Training and The Forum of the
> 1970s and 1980s, currently Erhard commits his time and intellectual effort
> almost exclusively to the academic world.  Werner Erhard's recentresearch
> and writing, and lectures and courses can be found on his author page in
the
> Social Sciences Research Network – http://ssrn.com/author=433651 .  More
> than two million people around the world have participated in the public,
> corporate and academic programs and courses he has created.  Social
> scientist Daniel Yankelovich said of a study he conducted of participants
of
> The Forum: “Several of the study’s findings surprised me quite a bit,
> especially the large number of participants for whom The Forum proved to
be
> ‘one of the most valued experiences of my life’. This is not a sentiment
> that people, especially successful, well-educated people, express
lightly.”
>
> Werner Erhard is largely self-educated, albeit with tutoring from some
> important thinkers of his time, Sir Karl Popper , Hilary Putnam , Michel
> Foucault , Humberto Maturana and Richard Feynman to name a few. Professor
> of Philosophy, Michael E. Zimmerman said of Erhard “He had no particular
> formal training in anything, but he understood things as well as anyone
I’d
> ever seen; and I’ve been around a lot of smart people in academia. This
is
> an extraordinary intellect I saw at work…”  In recognition of his
> humanitarian work around the world Werner Erhard was awarded the Mahatma
> Gandhi Humanitarian Award.
>
> There is a site with his more recent papers. I'm going to take a look.
> Beret Griffith
>
> At 06:41 PM 10/3/2010, you wrote:
>
>
>
> I choked and gagged reflexively when I read that RS-1 in any way birthed
> Werner Erhard's EST. [pardon me while I throw up].
> The only similarity I can think of might be the style of boxing people
into
> a weekend format and forcing them to deal with something rather than
> escaping into their favorite avoidance patterns.
> Hmm, sound familiar?
> Or maybe this one: "There ISN'T any Messiah..."
> Marshall
> And I don't think we made people hold it until they wet their panties--a
> famous Erhard tactic.
>
>
> From: "slottaglobalnews at earthlink.net"<slottaglobalnews at earthlink.net>
> To: Order Ecumenical Community<oe at wedgeblade.net>
> Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 4:04:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] FW: Landmark Education News
>
> I think Landmark Education is a spin-off from RSI through the work of
Werner
> Erhard. Once called EST it became Landmark Forum and then Landmark
> Education. It is still recruited pretty much like RS-I.
>
> On Oct 2, 2010, at 10:10 AM, KarenBueno at aol.comwrote:
>
>
>
>
> That looks like a dynamite organization.  I wonder if they have plansto
> replicate it.
>
> Karen Bueno
>
> In a message dated 10/2/2010 8:29:53 A.M. MountainDaylight Time,
> amnoel at comcast.net writes:
>
> the following video that has impacted my family and 3 million lives
>
> _______________________________________________
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-- 
  Tracy E. Longacre
  from Lubumbashi,DR Congo

"I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life was
service. I acted and behold, service was joy."    RabindranathTagore

  Adventures in Development blog: telglobal.vox.com
  Running & Spirituality: revruns.blogspot.com

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