[Oe List ...] Salmon: On God

Thu Oct 14 07:25:14 CDT 2010

Another add-on to the string, I certainly agree with the remarks here but have a further wonder -

In reading Klotz's book, Prayers of the Cosmos, (p. 12) (recommended by Matthew Fox, for Fox fans) he works on the aramaic phrase "Abwoon d'bwashmaya" translated into English as "Our Father which art in Heaven," which may not have much in common with our translation.  Like most translations from language to language, some of it doesn't.  "Abwoon," the word put in Jesus' mouth by the writers of the New Testament, doesn't translate directly into the Greek "Abba," which we have been taught to translate as "Father," though, since it was a familial and not a formal term could better be translated as "Daddy," but the Aramaic is two root words - "Ab" which is gender neutral (and some Aramaic scholars point out it may refer to a female deity of the past) and "woon" which seems to mean in Aramaic something like the abyss from which all things come.  So maybe "mystery" is not such a bad translation of G-O-D or "Father" in our Bibles.  And since Aramaic, like many middle Eastern languages is more contextual than literal, tonal inflection and situation, can vary the meaning.  When I went to seminary, New Testament Greek was as far as we reached back, and "Abba" was the in-word, so it's not to hard to see how our theology got strung out from there.  The seeming fact that Jesus used "Abwoon" rather than the other popular terms for God in the Aramaic of his day, leaves us with another interesting conundrum, why that word and not the "normal" or "popular" ones like El, Illah or the unpronounceable ones, etc.

The other interesting note is why did Jesus (writers of the N.T.) talk again and again of G-O-D being within rather than the God-in-the-Sky?

Our Western Theological traditions may have some work to do yet. As my old professor Albert Outler used to say, "You pays your money and you takes "yer" choice."  But he would go on from there and say quietly "and that "ain't" the end of the story.  (BTW, he's the prof. that used to bug JWM to finish his doctrate.)

Having ventured more into interfaith conversations the past few years, I'm wondering if we are not already in that secular-religious "religion" that we talked about, and what does that mean for us today.

George Holcombe
14900 Yellowleaf Tr.
Austin, TX 78728
Home: 512/252-2756
Mobile 512/294-5952
geowanda at earthlink.net

‎"The future belongs to those who give the next generation reason for hope." -Teilhard de Chardin

On Oct 13, 2010, at 8:08 PM, James Wiegel wrote:

> Desmond Avery's book, Beyond Power:  Simone Weil and the Notion of Authority, would be a great study book -- I read it this summer (and had chance, celebrating their 40th Anniversary for extended conversations with the author).  As humans, we don't ever start from scratch and never come near thinking things through all the way.  We rely on all kinds of "authorities", kind of assuming they are right (which includes the authority of our own experience).  
> 
> "In every area of life, from personal well-being to international decision-making, the need for a better understanding of whom to obey, ignore, or oppose is conspicuous.  The writings of Simone Weil, whether admired for their brilliance or deplored for their shortcomings, offer a unique opportunity to construct such an understanding."
> 
> 
> Jim
> 
> The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails. William Arthur Ward.
> 
> Jim Wiegel
> 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
> +1 623-936-8671 +1 623-363-3277
> jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
> 
> --- On Wed, 10/13/10, Susan Fertig <susan at gmdtech.com> wrote:
> 
> From: Susan Fertig <susan at gmdtech.com>
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Salmon: On God
> To: "'Order Ecumenical Community'" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
> Date: Wednesday, October 13, 2010, 5:43 PM
> 
> You said, “Where was God …” and then posited that He was in those moments in the manifestation of love.
> 
> Life is the refiner’s fire.  I believe He doesn’t bring or give us trouble, but He allows it. And it is in those moments of greatest pain, or struggle, that the greatest intimacy with Him is possible.
> 
>  
> Susan
> 
>  
> From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of William Salmon
> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:05 AM
> To: Order Ecumenical Community
> Subject: [Oe List ...] Salmon: On God
> 
>  
> Colleagues All--
> 
>     One 20th and 21st Century danger is that of claiming a God that is too small. One of the blessings of the Order's proclamation of God as Mystery is that it forced us to acknowledge that which we are not. In order to embrace such a definition it was necessary to suspend our dis-belief. At least this definition does not fall off on moralism or pietism. It does become distorted by a false objectification.
> 
>     I've never been comfortable with a God as Mystery, although I can theologically justify such a God; there is too much that we can not understand.
> 
>     However, the objectification of all our old Christian Code Words is THE PROBLEM given to us in our Modern Worldview created at the great paradigm TURN during the 15th and 16th Century. The invention of the Scientific Method, the Renaissance, the Reformation, and Industrial/Urbanization birthed such an objectification yet still framed it in metaphysical analysis; for his time, Pipa is correct in his Passes: "God's in His (sic) heaven and all's right with the world."
> 
>     The problem is clearly manifested at the Great paradigm TURN initiated by Einstein's physics. There ain't no Heaven and there's not a God to reside there! There never was and there never will be.The reason is this kind of God just ain't!
> 
>     Isn't this the message of Jesus? Are you looking for the Lone Ranger? There isn't any, and I'm He! The one who comes to tell us that an objective God does not exist actually is the God we seek. Such information is more than the Truth, actually it is the experience of GOODNESS.
> 
>     God is not an object that lives beyond the sky.Our faith-story is that God is EXPERIENCED as Love. We need to remember that Love comes to us as forgiveness, acceptance, passion, in familial, and as Tough Love ("Order Member, get your ass out of bed and into Daily Office!" Remember?)
> 
>     This experience is no Mystery. It is as intimate as it is universal. We experience it in every aspect of creation from birth, driven through pain and joy, and then in death. Love comes to us at every turn.
> 
>     Those who are awake to this GOOD NEWS understand the formula ALL IS GOOD, THE PRESENT IS RECEIVED AS A GIFT, THE PAST NOT ONLY IS FORGIVEN IT IS FORGOTTEN, AND THE FUTURE IS OPEN!
> 
>     It is the work of the Awakened to demonstrate this TRUTH that the truth we seek actually is GOODNESS. The way in which we embrace this reality is to take the Leap of Faith; that is, to surrender by falling into the care of such Good News and ask others to come leap with us.
> 
>     To die to our illusions of what Truth actually is becomes the profound experience of resurrection into blessed assurance.  
> 
>     The movie, "Joe Vs. the Volcano" (Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan) tell this story is Spades, and Joe and Patricia actually make the sacrifice of jumping into a volcano for a group of people (a part of the Lost Tribes of Israel!) who are to chicken to do their own sacrifice. Why does Joe do this? He does it because he wants to, "Live like a king and die like a man." The result is that the movie ends by "taking us away from the things of man;" i.e., our illusions about the objectification of our old Christian Lexicon.   
> 
>     Because they make this leap, a WONDER occurs. (Observe this is not a MIRACLE. What happens is the result of Love, and that is not the TRUTH, but it is a GOODNESS.)
> 
>  
>     Post-modern theology never asks the question, "What do we KNOW about God, Christ, HS, the Human Situation, Sin, Grace, etc." The question always is, "How do we EXPERIENCE these things."
> 
>     Until this little exercise becomes second nature, all of us will continue to attempt to define the indefinable simply because it is not definable. It is experienced as close as our breath and our empathy and our sympathy. It is as close as living the surrendered life as a servant to our spouses, partners, friends and colleagues.
> 
>     Now, Mother Nature is something else. Mom N is the culprit for much of what we blame God. Why did our son Wesley die at 20 years old with leukemia? Is God punishing him, or his parents. Not on your sweet bippy! Leukemia and childhood death is just The Way Life Is (TWLI). Yep, Mom Nature guarantees that leukemia and cancer, and crib death all have their place in the universe. She also is responsible for the depth of degradation that we selfish--read Un-Awakened--ass holes are capable of doing to beat up on those who don't UNDERSTAND GOD just like we do; how else can you explain 9/11?
> 
>     Where was Love when 200 people jumped 110 stories? Or where was Love when the plane on the way into the Pennsylvanian earth when someone on board yelled, "Let's roll!"
> 
>     Easy. Love was on board, and with the jumpers all the way into the ground. Then Love was in the rebirth of patriotism, and generosity, and actual care for those who hurt.
> 
>  
>    Well, like always, I've said too much, much too badly.
> 
>    Maybe this will stir your juices to begin to think in the methods of our Post-Modern worldview. Care to dialogue?
> 
>    Inner Peace,
> 
>    Bill Salmon
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> 
> From: Susan Fertig
> 
> To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
> 
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 6:54 PM
> 
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Pedagogue list of last 20 years
> 
>  
> I backslid into believing in the Trinity, and a God in control.
> 
>  
> Susan
> 
>  
> From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of David Walters
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 8:44 PM
> To: Order Ecumenical Community
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Pedagogue list of last 20 years
> 
>  
> What happened between you and Kazantzakis? Have you departed from the Crimson Line?
> 
>  
> David Walters
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> 
> From: Susan Fertig
> 
> To: 'Order Ecumenical Community' ; dialogue at wedgeblade.net
> 
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:30 PM
> 
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Pedagogue list of last 20 years
> 
>  
> Pedagogues:
> 
> Don Clark (72-76, Venezuela courses and Houston Rel. Hse.)
> 
> Christina Clark (Houston period)
> 
> Sherwood Shankland (ongoing, beginning in the 70s)
> 
> Bruce and Marcie Bunker (Venezuela, Caracas Rel. Hse.)
> 
> Rafael Davila
> 
> Steve Allen (courses in Venezuela)
> 
> George and Wanda Holcombe
> 
> George West
> 
> And many others
> 
> Guides:
> 
> Herman Hesse (Journey to the East)
> 
> Teilhard de Chardin
> 
> Kazantzakis (at one time, not any longer)
> 
>  
> Susan
> 
>  
> From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On Behalf Of LAURELCG at aol.com
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 1:00 PM
> To: Oe at wedgeblade.net; dialogue at wedgeblade.net
> Subject: [Oe List ...] Pedagogue list of last 20 years
> 
>  
> I wanted to bring back this list. Hope my editing attempt didn't delete anything vital to its meaning. Here's mine.
> 
> I have to go back a little further to the 80's when the 12 Steps of A.A. saved me and my family.
> 
> Matthew Fox led me to the Four Paths of Creation Spirituality: Positiva, Negativa, Creativa, Transformativa.
> 
> Starhawk on Feminist Thealogy, took me beyond the church's stance of female as less than fully human
> 
> Rosalyn Bruyere on energy healing
> 
> Thomas Berry and Bryan Swimme on the Universe Story and our moment in it
> 
> Ann LaMott on writing and the importance of humor
> 
> Barbara Kingsolver - myriad gifts
> 
> Barack Obama - all is possible
> 
> Richard Bartlett - importance of hallucinating the possible - it's all possible
> 
>  
> Thanks for asking.
> 
> Blessings, dear colleagues,
> 
> Jann McGuire
> 
>  
> This is interesting, perhaps add, what image did they help puncture or shape?
> Robert Bly -- gave me back poetry
> Nikos Kazantzakis -- I keep coming back to Saviors of God -- reminds me of the awesome journey
> Rianne Eisler -- living in a post patriarchal time . . .
> Vaclav Havel -- meaning can shape political realities
> 
> 
> --- On Wed, 9/29/10, R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] New Pedagogy and New Pedagogues
> To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
> Date: Wednesday, Septem
> 
> Parker Palmer
> 
> Peter Senge
> 
> Margaret Wheatley
> 
> Willis Harman
> 
> Rachel Naomi Remen
> 
> Robert Greenleaf
> 
> Peter Block
> 
> --- On Wed, 9/29/10, PSchrijnen at aol.com <PSchrijnen at aol.com> wrote
> 
> David Whyte
> 
> Richard McDonald
> 
> Robert Bly
> 
> Rowan Williams
> 
> Thich Nhat Hanh
> 
> 
> > START CLOSE IN
> >
> > Start close in,
> > don't take the second step
> > or the third,
> > start with the first
> > thing
> > close in,
> > the step you don't want to take.
> >
> > Start with
> > the ground
> > you know,
> > the pale ground
> > beneath your feet,
> > your own
> > way of starting
> > the conversation.
> >
> > Start with your own
> > question,
> > give up on other
> > people's questions,
> > don't let them
> > smother something
> > simple.
> >
> > To find
> > another's voice
> > follow
> > your own voice,
> >
> > wait until
> > that voice
> > becomes a
> > private ear
> > listening
> > to another.
> >
> > Start right now
> > take a small step
> > you can call your own
> > don't follow
> > someone else's
> > heroics, be humble
> > and focused,
> > start close in,
> > don't mistake
> > that other
> > for your own.
> >
> > Start close in,
> > don't take the second step
> > or the third,
> > start with the first
> > thing
> > close in,
> > the step you don't want to take.
> >
> >
> > ~ David Whyte
> >
> >
> > People who are aware of this process and consciously cooperating with
> > it are developing what David Whyte calls "True Presence" and a
> > "Conversational Identity".  If you haven't gotten his Live in San
> > Francisco DVD, you and Burna would just love it!  I think I ordered it
> > for $15 on his website DavidWhyte. com 
> 
> 
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