[Oe List ...] Salmon: On God

Thu Oct 14 21:54:54 CDT 2010

As I remember, George, "within" is the same greek word as "among."
John E

Quoting George Holcombe <geowanda at earthlink.net>:

> Another add-on to the string, I certainly agree with the remarks here
> but have a further wonder -
>
> In reading Klotz's book, Prayers of the Cosmos, (p. 12) (recommended by
> Matthew Fox, for Fox fans) he works on the aramaic phrase "Abwoon
> d'bwashmaya" translated into English as "Our Father which art in
> Heaven," which may not have much in common with our translation.  Like
> most translations from language to language, some of it doesn't.
> "Abwoon," the word put in Jesus' mouth by the writers of the New
> Testament, doesn't translate directly into the Greek "Abba," which we
> have been taught to translate as "Father," though, since it was a
> familial and not a formal term could better be translated as "Daddy,"
> but the Aramaic is two root words - "Ab" which is gender neutral (and
> some Aramaic scholars point out it may refer to a female deity of the
> past) and "woon" which seems to mean in Aramaic something like the
> abyss from which all things come.  So maybe "mystery" is not such a bad
> translation of G-O-D or "Father" in our Bibles.  And since Aramaic,
> like many middle Eastern languages is more contextual than literal,
> tonal inflection and situation, can vary the meaning.  When I went to
> seminary, New Testament Greek was as far as we reached back, and "Abba"
> was the in-word, so it's not to hard to see how our theology got strung
> out from there.  The seeming fact that Jesus used "Abwoon" rather than
> the other popular terms for God in the Aramaic of his day, leaves us
> with another interesting conundrum, why that word and not the "normal"
> or "popular" ones like El, Illah or the unpronounceable ones, etc.
>
> The other interesting note is why did Jesus (writers of the N.T.) talk
> again and again of G-O-D being within rather than the God-in-the-Sky?
>
> Our Western Theological traditions may have some work to do yet. As my
> old professor Albert Outler used to say, "You pays your money and you
> takes "yer" choice."  But he would go on from there and say quietly
> "and that "ain't" the end of the story.  (BTW, he's the prof. that used
> to bug JWM to finish his doctrate.)
>
> Having ventured more into interfaith conversations the past few years,
> I'm wondering if we are not already in that secular-religious
> "religion" that we talked about, and what does that mean for us today.
>
>
> George Holcombe
> 14900 Yellowleaf Tr.
> Austin, TX 78728
> Home: 512/252-2756
> Mobile 512/294-5952
> geowanda at earthlink.net
>
> â€Ž"The future belongs to those who give the next generation reason for
> hope." -Teilhard de Chardin
>
> On Oct 13, 2010, at 8:08 PM, James Wiegel wrote:
>
> > Desmond Avery's book, Beyond Power:  Simone Weil and the Notion of
> Authority, would be a great study book -- I read it this summer (and
> had chance, celebrating their 40th Anniversary for extended
> conversations with the author).  As humans, we don't ever start from
> scratch and never come near thinking things through all the way.  We
> rely on all kinds of "authorities", kind of assuming they are right
> (which includes the authority of our own experience).
> >
> > "In every area of life, from personal well-being to international
> decision-making, the need for a better understanding of whom to obey,
> ignore, or oppose is conspicuous.  The writings of Simone Weil, whether
> admired for their brilliance or deplored for their shortcomings, offer
> a unique opportunity to construct such an understanding."
> >
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to
> change; the realist adjusts the sails. William Arthur Ward.
> >
> > Jim Wiegel
> > 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson, Arizona 85353-2401
> > +1 623-936-8671 +1 623-363-3277
> > jfwiegel at yahoo.com www.partnersinparticipation.com
> >
> > --- On Wed, 10/13/10, Susan Fertig <susan at gmdtech.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Susan Fertig <susan at gmdtech.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Salmon: On God
> > To: "'Order Ecumenical Community'" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
> > Date: Wednesday, October 13, 2010, 5:43 PM
> >
> > You said, â€œWhere was God â€¦â€ and then posited that He was in
> those moments in the manifestation of love.
> >
> > Life is the refinerâ€™s fire.  I believe He doesnâ€™t bring or give
> us trouble, but He allows it. And it is in those moments of greatest
> pain, or struggle, that the greatest intimacy with Him is possible.
> >
> >
> > Susan
> >
> >
> > From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On
> Behalf Of William Salmon
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:05 AM
> > To: Order Ecumenical Community
> > Subject: [Oe List ...] Salmon: On God
> >
> >
> > Colleagues All--
> >
> >     One 20th and 21st Century danger is that of claiming a God that
> is too small. One of the blessings of the Order's proclamation of God
> as Mystery is that it forced us to acknowledge that which we are not.
> In order to embrace such a definition it was necessary to suspend our
> dis-belief. At least this definition does not fall off on moralism or
> pietism. It does become distorted by a false objectification.
> >
> >     I've never been comfortable with a God as Mystery, although I can
> theologically justify such a God; there is too much that we can not
> understand.
> >
> >     However, the objectification of all our old Christian Code Words
> is THE PROBLEM given to us in our Modern Worldview created at the great
> paradigm TURN during the 15th and 16th Century. The invention of the
> Scientific Method, the Renaissance, the Reformation, and
> Industrial/Urbanization birthed such an objectification yet still
> framed it in metaphysical analysis; for his time, Pipa is correct in
> his Passes: "God's in His (sic) heaven and all's right with the world."
> >
> >     The problem is clearly manifested at the Great paradigm TURN
> initiated by Einstein's physics. There ain't no Heaven and there's not
> a God to reside there! There never was and there never will be.The
> reason is this kind of God just ain't!
> >
> >     Isn't this the message of Jesus? Are you looking for the Lone
> Ranger? There isn't any, and I'm He! The one who comes to tell us that
> an objective God does not exist actually is the God we seek. Such
> information is more than the Truth, actually it is the experience of
> GOODNESS.
> >
> >     God is not an object that lives beyond the sky.Our faith-story is
> that God is EXPERIENCED as Love. We need to remember that Love comes to
> us as forgiveness, acceptance, passion, in familial, and as Tough Love
> ("Order Member, get your ass out of bed and into Daily Office!"
> Remember?)
> >
> >     This experience is no Mystery. It is as intimate as it is
> universal. We experience it in every aspect of creation from birth,
> driven through pain and joy, and then in death. Love comes to us at
> every turn.
> >
> >     Those who are awake to this GOOD NEWS understand the formula ALL
> IS GOOD, THE PRESENT IS RECEIVED AS A GIFT, THE PAST NOT ONLY IS
> FORGIVEN IT IS FORGOTTEN, AND THE FUTURE IS OPEN!
> >
> >     It is the work of the Awakened to demonstrate this TRUTH that the
> truth we seek actually is GOODNESS. The way in which we embrace this
> reality is to take the Leap of Faith; that is, to surrender by falling
> into the care of such Good News and ask others to come leap with us.
> >
> >     To die to our illusions of what Truth actually is becomes the
> profound experience of resurrection into blessed assurance.
> >
> >     The movie, "Joe Vs. the Volcano" (Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan) tell
> this story is Spades, and Joe and Patricia actually make the sacrifice
> of jumping into a volcano for a group of people (a part of the Lost
> Tribes of Israel!) who are to chicken to do their own sacrifice. Why
> does Joe do this? He does it because he wants to, "Live like a king and
> die like a man." The result is that the movie ends by "taking us away
> from the things of man;" i.e., our illusions about the objectification
> of our old Christian Lexicon.
> >
> >     Because they make this leap, a WONDER occurs. (Observe this is
> not a MIRACLE. What happens is the result of Love, and that is not the
> TRUTH, but it is a GOODNESS.)
> >
> >
> >     Post-modern theology never asks the question, "What do we KNOW
> about God, Christ, HS, the Human Situation, Sin, Grace, etc." The
> question always is, "How do we EXPERIENCE these things."
> >
> >     Until this little exercise becomes second nature, all of us will
> continue to attempt to define the indefinable simply because it is not
> definable. It is experienced as close as our breath and our empathy and
> our sympathy. It is as close as living the surrendered life as a
> servant to our spouses, partners, friends and colleagues.
> >
> >     Now, Mother Nature is something else. Mom N is the culprit for
> much of what we blame God. Why did our son Wesley die at 20 years old
> with leukemia? Is God punishing him, or his parents. Not on your sweet
> bippy! Leukemia and childhood death is just The Way Life Is (TWLI).
> Yep, Mom Nature guarantees that leukemia and cancer, and crib death all
> have their place in the universe. She also is responsible for the depth
> of degradation that we selfish--read Un-Awakened--ass holes are capable
> of doing to beat up on those who don't UNDERSTAND GOD just like we do;
> how else can you explain 9/11?
> >
> >     Where was Love when 200 people jumped 110 stories? Or where was
> Love when the plane on the way into the Pennsylvanian earth when
> someone on board yelled, "Let's roll!"
> >
> >     Easy. Love was on board, and with the jumpers all the way into
> the ground. Then Love was in the rebirth of patriotism, and generosity,
> and actual care for those who hurt.
> >
> >
> >    Well, like always, I've said too much, much too badly.
> >
> >    Maybe this will stir your juices to begin to think in the methods
> of our Post-Modern worldview. Care to dialogue?
> >
> >    Inner Peace,
> >
> >    Bill Salmon
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: Susan Fertig
> >
> > To: 'Order Ecumenical Community'
> >
> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 6:54 PM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Pedagogue list of last 20 years
> >
> >
> > I backslid into believing in the Trinity, and a God in control.
> >
> >
> > Susan
> >
> >
> > From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On
> Behalf Of David Walters
> > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 8:44 PM
> > To: Order Ecumenical Community
> > Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Pedagogue list of last 20 years
> >
> >
> > What happened between you and Kazantzakis? Have you departed from the
> Crimson Line?
> >
> >
> > David Walters
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: Susan Fertig
> >
> > To: 'Order Ecumenical Community' ; dialogue at wedgeblade.net
> >
> > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:30 PM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Pedagogue list of last 20 years
> >
> >
> > Pedagogues:
> >
> > Don Clark (72-76, Venezuela courses and Houston Rel. Hse.)
> >
> > Christina Clark (Houston period)
> >
> > Sherwood Shankland (ongoing, beginning in the 70s)
> >
> > Bruce and Marcie Bunker (Venezuela, Caracas Rel. Hse.)
> >
> > Rafael Davila
> >
> > Steve Allen (courses in Venezuela)
> >
> > George and Wanda Holcombe
> >
> > George West
> >
> > And many others
> >
> > Guides:
> >
> > Herman Hesse (Journey to the East)
> >
> > Teilhard de Chardin
> >
> > Kazantzakis (at one time, not any longer)
> >
> >
> > Susan
> >
> >
> > From: oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net [mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On
> Behalf Of LAURELCG at aol.com
> > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 1:00 PM
> > To: Oe at wedgeblade.net; dialogue at wedgeblade.net
> > Subject: [Oe List ...] Pedagogue list of last 20 years
> >
> >
> > I wanted to bring back this list. Hope my editing attempt didn't
> delete anything vital to its meaning. Here's mine.
> >
> > I have to go back a little further to the 80's when the 12 Steps of
> A.A. saved me and my family.
> >
> > Matthew Fox led me to the Four Paths of Creation Spirituality:
> Positiva, Negativa, Creativa, Transformativa.
> >
> > Starhawk on Feminist Thealogy, took me beyond the church's stance of
> female as less than fully human
> >
> > Rosalyn Bruyere on energy healing
> >
> > Thomas Berry and Bryan Swimme on the Universe Story and our moment in
> it
> >
> > Ann LaMott on writing and the importance of humor
> >
> > Barbara Kingsolver - myriad gifts
> >
> > Barack Obama - all is possible
> >
> > Richard Bartlett - importance of hallucinating the possible - it's
> all possible
> >
> >
> > Thanks for asking.
> >
> > Blessings, dear colleagues,
> >
> > Jann McGuire
> >
> >
> > This is interesting, perhaps add, what image did they help puncture
> or shape?
> > Robert Bly -- gave me back poetry
> > Nikos Kazantzakis -- I keep coming back to Saviors of God -- reminds
> me of the awesome journey
> > Rianne Eisler -- living in a post patriarchal time . . .
> > Vaclav Havel -- meaning can shape political realities
> >
> >
> > --- On Wed, 9/29/10, R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > From: R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] New Pedagogy and New Pedagogues
> > To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
> > Date: Wednesday, Septem
> >
> > Parker Palmer
> >
> > Peter Senge
> >
> > Margaret Wheatley
> >
> > Willis Harman
> >
> > Rachel Naomi Remen
> >
> > Robert Greenleaf
> >
> > Peter Block
> >
> > --- On Wed, 9/29/10, PSchrijnen at aol.com <PSchrijnen at aol.com> wrote
> >
> > David Whyte
> >
> > Richard McDonald
> >
> > Robert Bly
> >
> > Rowan Williams
> >
> > Thich Nhat Hanh
> >
> >
> > > START CLOSE IN
> > >
> > > Start close in,
> > > don't take the second step
> > > or the third,
> > > start with the first
> > > thing
> > > close in,
> > > the step you don't want to take.
> > >
> > > Start with
> > > the ground
> > > you know,
> > > the pale ground
> > > beneath your feet,
> > > your own
> > > way of starting
> > > the conversation.
> > >
> > > Start with your own
> > > question,
> > > give up on other
> > > people's questions,
> > > don't let them
> > > smother something
> > > simple.
> > >
> > > To find
> > > another's voice
> > > follow
> > > your own voice,
> > >
> > > wait until
> > > that voice
> > > becomes a
> > > private ear
> > > listening
> > > to another.
> > >
> > > Start right now
> > > take a small step
> > > you can call your own
> > > don't follow
> > > someone else's
> > > heroics, be humble
> > > and focused,
> > > start close in,
> > > don't mistake
> > > that other
> > > for your own.
> > >
> > > Start close in,
> > > don't take the second step
> > > or the third,
> > > start with the first
> > > thing
> > > close in,
> > > the step you don't want to take.
> > >
> > >
> > > ~ David Whyte
> > >
> > >
> > > People who are aware of this process and consciously cooperating
> with
> > > it are developing what David Whyte calls "True Presence" and a
> > > "Conversational Identity".  If you haven't gotten his Live in San
> > > Francisco DVD, you and Burna would just love it!  I think I ordered
> it
> > > for $15 on his website DavidWhyte. com
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
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